Why do fans hate "The End Times"?

[Genisaurus]

I think Gobtar pretty much summed it up. Players wanted the story to advance, and wanted a refresh to the game. Instead, GW swept the board off the table, told everyone to **** off, and started their own game.

I don't hate the End Times, I hate that the End Times ended with Age of Sigmar. The lack of any worldbuilding or depth to the AoS universe almost physically hurts. I would have much preferred that the End Times decimate the world, reset all the factions to page 1, and then let them recover in the aftermath. There's a fan-fiction that follows this premise, Endhammer. It's not that bad.

I think these two points also do a good job of summarizing my two biggest complaints about how the event was handled:

Spoiler:

4. Cynicism. When Nagash was resurrected at his most powerful and conquered all of Nehekara, we thought 'That's **** awesome! now what next?' When hobbyists read that the elven races were combining, we thought 'Wow, how will they manage that in the long term?'. When Vlad became an Elector we thought 'What a cool hook. It's bold though, how will that go forward?'. They made so many radical changes in the full knowledge that in the end they wouldn't have to develop them because they were going to hit the 'chaos wins, everything dies, moar nihilism' button. That's not a very nice way to set people up for disappointment (and charge that over £200 in hardbacks when 'chaos kills everything' might have sufficed). What was the purpose of the details and character interactions in a story which would result in the erasure of the setting? Of course, it seems less like an attempt to give WFB a good send-off and more like one last cash-grab before giving the old fanbase the bum's rush.

5. Chaos always wins. The assertion that the ending was original ignores the existence of genres such as noir, but also ignores GW's own latter canon. Chaos is always depicted as ascendant to the point of nihilism. Good guys have not been allowed anything but the most Pyrrhic victories for about ten years now. The ending they selected was the predictable, tedious Chaos fan fiction anyone following the material could have grimly come to forecast. By choosing to destroy the world, GW have done two things in this way: told us that all the dreaming and imagining and fighting we did for that world was utterly pointless. They've also put themselves in a bind: what is the incentive to get involved when the triumph of chaos is inevitable? Why would we care about the new world when chaos will inevitably destroy that in the end as well? Why live when death is inevitable? Perhaps more to the point, what's to stop GW from hitting the 'chaos wins' button again a few years after we've got used to the new canon? In a way, GeeDubs finally got the Storm of Chaos they really wanted, now without that pesky element known as "fanbase interaction" meddling with the writers as they essentially fapped off to Chaos killing everyone because they're so awesome and - wait, why's everyone leaving? What do you mean, 'we liked those other guys'?
The major argument isn't that Chaos' victory is inevitable. That much has been hinted as far back as Realms of Chaos. The argument is that the setting's lost that sort of allure of the possibility that this inevitable victory could be stalled. There's nothing out there about "What if Nagash actually became the god he wanted and made everyone dead?" or another opposing end goal that can be possible. By flat-out letting Chaos win, they've made it clear that all these other endings are completely impossible.

[TenTonHammer]

Point 5 is especially correct

In W40K the victory of chaos is seen as inevitable bar nom noming by the nids

in the End Times it was ment to be the culmination of every prophecy and other factors that ment that it was all supposed to be up in the air about what happens and who comes out on top but GW goes with the most predictable thing ever

[Penril]

We should make our own continuation of the Old World.

Karl Franz is now Carl Frank. (try sueing us fcking GW!!!)

[bloodi]

We should make our own continuation of the Old World.

Jokes aside, i wonder how legally feasible this is, GW just basically said "the ball is mine and no one plays with it anymore"

They clearly said they do not want anything more to do with fantasy but being the giant jackasses they are, i guess its just matter of someone starting to make a little bit more money than them out of it to end the age of sigmar and start releasing Chaos Dwarves again.

[Penril]

Well, they changed Elfs to Aelfs so they could copyright them. Let's make Carlitos Frank and copyright him as well.

Jokes aside... what happened to Dungeons and Dragons after they released that atrocity called 4th edition? People left in masses and started playing Pathfinder. Then D&D released 5th edition trying to fix the mess they did.

I hope something similar happens to the Old World.

[bloodi]

Well, they changed Elfs to Aelfs so they could copyright them. Let's make Carlitos Frank and copyright him as well.

So "The Empire" is now a cocaine cartel fighting the "Orks" a rival gang for the control of the traffic in the old world?

This **** writes itself!

Jokes aside... what happened to Dungeons and Dragons after they released that atrocity called 4th edition? People left in masses and started playing Pathfinder. Then D&D released 5th edition trying to fix the mess they did.

I hope something similar happens to the Old World.

There is actually a **** of people whho think 4th was an improvement.

I think they are going to hell but hey, they exist, the page Genisaurus linked actually has a few articles about it that are fairly hilarious.

But if we are recommending articles from that page, i suggest reading the Dawn of War section, its great.

[Gobtar]

Point 5 is especially correct

In W40K the victory of chaos is seen as inevitable bar nom noming by the nids

in the End Times it was ment to be the culmination of every prophecy and other factors that ment that it was all supposed to be up in the air about what happens and who comes out on top but GW goes with the most predictable thing ever

Thanks Geni, those points echoed my thoughts.

I think the Chaos Wins scenario was ultimately frustrating because winning was never Chaos' objective, but the act of chaos itself, this has been echoed many times over the years. Chaos is interested in staying invested, having things constantly change, shuffle the deck, winning means the game is over. I don't think GW understands their own lore anymore. I know they don't understand 40k's satire or how much the game satirizes the very thing they have become.

The chaos gods and chaos itself is just a reflection of living creatures that inhabit the world, they need to be sustained by these creatures to survive. Annihilation of every single being would mean their eventual death. in 40k this is perfectly understood by Chaos Space Marines, they know their battle will be indefinite. (Hence the concept of Eternal War)... just another example of hijacking their own established cannon and adapting it to suite their 'business'...

AoS is already tanking, and I am sure TW:Warhammer is going to be an eye opener on how much people loved the Old World.

[Penril]

There is actually a **** of people whho think 4th was an improvement.

Maybe, but Pathfinder surpassed them on sales while they were at 4th edition. And 5th edition is way more similar to 3.5 than to 4th.

But we are derailing. This thread is for us to cry about the Old World

[TenTonHammer]

Thanks Geni, those points echoed my thoughts.

I think the Chaos Wins scenario was ultimately frustrating because winning was never Chaos' objective, but the act of chaos itself, this has been echoed many times over the years. Chaos is interested in staying invested, having things constantly change, shuffle the deck, winning means the game is over. I don't think GW understands their own lore anymore. I know they don't understand 40k's satire or how much the game satirizes the very thing they have become.

The chaos gods and chaos itself is just a reflection of living creatures that inhabit the world, they need to be sustained by these creatures to survive. Annihilation of every single being would mean their eventual death. in 40k this is perfectly understood by Chaos Space Marines, they know their battle will be indefinite. (Hence the concept of Eternal War)... just another example of hijacking their own established cannon and adapting it to suite their 'business'...

AoS is already tanking, and I am sure TW:Warhammer is going to be an eye opener on how much people loved the Old World.

this would be true if it wasnt for the cop out comic book mutiple dimensions thing

so the chos gods can come in have kicking down the sand castle theyve been poking holes in and then still have another million sand castle to go poke holes in

[Gobtar]

Maybe, but Pathfinder surpassed them on sales while they were at 4th edition. And 5th edition is way more similar to 3.5 than to 4th.

But we are derailing. This thread is for us to cry about the Old World

5th edition is extremely grass roots. They know the screwed up, and yes they are fixing it, they reached out the community, have been working with them every step of the way, acknowledged past mistakes etc. 5th is much like a amalgamation of everything that worked in previous editions and even touching aspects from 1st ed.

this would be true if it wasnt for the cop out comic book mutiple dimensions thing

You have pointed out why both 40k and AoS no longer have any kind of investment, there are no stakes for the chaos gods. What always made me enthusiastic about Chaos' nature up until this change was that Chaos would keep itself in check. If one aspect of itself grew too powerful the other aspects would twart it. It could never fully win because of it's very nature.