[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[Bozzax]

I'd really like to see more feedback from ppl that actually play maras/WLs and that are good at it in this thread bf closing it. Why?

1. There is a counter play already in place (root break, M2, stay out of range etc yada yada)

2. It is more and more becoming a direct change to Mara/WL not morale "Root changes"as initially presented (wrong or not).

Root changes
The Marauder M1 root "Flames of Fate", the White Lion M1 root "Ensnare" and the Knight of the Blazing Sun M3 root "No Escape" will now have a 25% chance to break any time the target is attacked (direct damage, application of DoT, etc.)

3. I see lots of post in this thread being from ppl that are on the receiving end of that ability or probably wanting to keep NE out of the spotlight by fixing just FoF/Ensnare "quickly".

4. WLs have pounce that makes it affect Maras more maybe it is a good thing but still

5. So far most of what I've seen is FoF/Ensnare is op .... NERF it votes. Is it ok to change pounce by the same logic?

[Toldavf]

I don't have time right now but i will try to post later.

[Penril]

This thread probably won't be closed, but it will be heavily moderated from now on, at least on my part.

Azarael talked about a specific topic: how these abilities are of appropriate strength for M1 and why it is absolutely necessary that they should not break on damage at all. If people can't make an argument for this (or are unable to debunk anyone who makes such an argument) they should refrain from posting.

We are NOT interested in "yeah, imho those skills are fine, i vote yes" or any other similar posts.

[Gobtar]

The reason I think that most people don't mind if FoF/Ensnare is decreased from 10s to 5s is that if that root lands on most non-mage DPS it will be fried. It takes about 2seconds for a melee train to close the 65' gap, that gives 3 seconds to eat the RDPS.

A competent 6-man will add another 3 seconds on that with a KD (pending immunities). If the DPS couldn't kill that RDPS in that window they more than likely wouldn't be able to kill them (Guard/detaunt/Morale/focus heals).

The 65' range of the ability means the skill checks involved to catch a kiting RDPS that is in the killzone goes to practically none.

So in my opinion changing the duration and nothing else is a vote for status quo, "it's a great change, because it doesn't change anything". It will stay a "This guy is gonna git REKT" button

[Morf]

I dont think having fof/ensnare break on X damage is the way to go, it doesnt change to much, by the time you reach your target its more then likely they will be snared and kd and be unable to properly escape anyway.

Imo the problems here are the range and duration, 65 ft is a common range for rdps skills, not all but some so there are times when u need to be 65ft away from the frontline, then you take into account a charge from the mara or wl and that 65ft is reachable pretty dam fast hell you could be 100 ft away from the mara or wl and they can close that 35ft difference to m1 you quickly, now u factor in 12 of 24 classes cannot break the root unless they have m2 ready(and slotted), its unbalanced you shouldnt be punished for having good positioning.

My suggestion would be to have the root duration 5 seconds and the range reduced.

Also my feelings are not based entirely on being on the receiving end, i often play with maras and wl's who use "m1 of doom" to root and guarantee a kill or apply enough pressure to put the other team on the back foot.

[Bozzax]

This thread probably won't be closed, but it will be heavily moderated from now on, at least on my part.

Azarael talked about a specific topic: how these abilities are of appropriate strength for M1 and why it is absolutely necessary that they should not break on damage at all. If people can't make an argument for this (or are unable to debunk anyone who makes such an argument) they should refrain from posting.

We are NOT interested in "yeah, imho those skills are fine, i vote yes" or any other similar posts.

Compared to a Mage bolt: more damage, has shorter range and both apply CC but of different type
Compared to Rock clutch: more damage, has longer range but same CC
Compared to a pure damage M1: less damage (75%)
Compared to a Magus M1 snare: Shorter range, longer duration (40%), DD and a notch more damage
Compared to tanks CC: longer range but can be countered

FoF/Ensnare both are in the top 10 of M1s but are they strongest M1s in the game?
Well imo no, BG/SW self cleanse, Slayer Untouchable are example of stronger ones

So are other morale roots such as Rock Clutch, No Escape (Paralyzing Nightmares) also in the top 10 of their respective morale tier?
Yep morale roots are very strong currently FoF/Ensnare are no exceptions.

To sum it up
Damage: Higher then other M1s that have CC effects
Range: Strongest of its type (roots)
Duration: At par with similar abilities
CC effect: Over performing as morale roots are typically over performing

So yes FoF/Ensnare are over performing

[Cimba]

Concerning the appropriate strength
I think it is too strong as a M1 for the following reason
1. The required amount of time for gap closing is less than 10 seconds. It probably would be interesting to know how long it takes to cross 65f under the different speed options (charge,normal, 40% snare, 60% snare). With that information one could actually adjust the duration to something apporiate rather than the current arbitrary value.
2. The only skill based counter on the preferred targets is Focused Mind. So it requires a 'higher tier' counter than the ability itself. It should be possible to counter any ability with an ability of the same 'tier'.
(If I remember correcetly the main reason for the festering arrow nerf was, that the counter play was considered too hard in comparsion to the ease of execution. I believe the same applies here too all non-skill based counters)
3. The damage aspect is somewhat wasted in what I consider the main purpose of the ability (gap closing). However it allows to slot the ability and do morale dumps without significant draw backs with regards to other M1 choices. With that it offers a lot of flexibility with being useful as a gap closer and as a morale dump on hard targets.

[Morf]

Compared to a Mage bolt: more damage, has shorter range and both apply CC but of different type
Compared to Rock clutch: more damage, has longer range but same CC
Compared to a pure damage M1: less damage (75%)
Compared to a Magus M1 snare: Shorter range, longer duration (40%), DD and a notch more damage
Compared to tanks CC: longer range but can be countered

FoF/Ensnare both are in the top 10 of M1s but are they strongest M1s in the game?
Well imo no, BG/SW self cleanse, Slayer Untouchable are example of stronger ones

So are other morale roots such as Rock Clutch, No Escape (Paralyzing Nightmares) also in the top 10 of their respective morale tier?
Yep morale roots are very strong currently FoF/Ensnare are no exceptions and especially as the damage is high.

I dont see how comparing them to any of the other morales u listed is a legit counter, mage bolt doesnt make u unable to move for 10 seconds, rock clutch range is 5ft and on a tank class, pure damage isnt really the issue its a bonus, you get both strong CC and the opporunity to morale dump, if fof/ensnare dealt no damage it would still be favoured over severe nerve, magus snare you can still move just slower, tanks cc is 5ft so you can avoid it apart from stagger with breaks on damage and no escape which as a m3 can be broken with focus mind and has a radius of 30ft not a range of 65. Self cleanse,untouchable and other def morales are just as good but they are not used to guarantee a kill or apply enough pressure to turn the fight in your favour.

The main issue imo is that the counter to fof/ensnare is a morale 2 and you wont have morale 2 before they have morale 1, it isnt whether other morales perform better in certain situations.

[Gobtar]

Problem that I have encountered when attempting to think of a viable balance alternative to this ability is that it's mirrored for both WL and for Marauder. In terms of drastic changes I was thinking of it being replaced with a heavy (unbreakable?) snare ST 65' Starts at 60% and goes to 40% over 5 seconds

As a marauder the morale being a (unbreakable?) snare would be powerful and would give the marauder opportunity to catch up without it being a death-sentence. However when you add WLs to the mix and the ability to pounce, then a sticking snare can be a death sentence as well (as bad as root though? I don't think so)

This would also make the morale a lot more than a gimmick death-sentence button.

[TenTonHammer]

Problem that I have encountered when attempting to think of a viable balance alternative to this ability is that it's mirrored for both WL and for Marauder.

The fact of the matter is though that making any changes to ensare will have minimal effect on WL who is a class bulit around chasing classes espically rdps

however FoF is one of destros big anti kite tools, of the few they have, so any changes affect destro more than order