[Implementation Feedback] Morale Gain

[Tesq]

M4 is over talked, you dont use moral 4 offensively, you use it defensivly when the enemy have the advantage which in order case is 100% of the time, destru moral 4 spam is a band aid which is exatly the same for the dok m2 agaisnt effect such shatter limbs.
This is why balance for the most part a game around 6vs6 is a bad choice if 2 tank are keep spam morales in 6vs6 for a game which was not designed to be 6vs 6 and with offensive morales that wreck things and with offensive morales that IGNORE MORAL 4 who cares? use offensive morales then to kill stop complain about M4 which is 1 of the way to handle zerg.

Spoiler:

Did any even think about the way the ttk is handle is wrong ? you suppose not to die so easily and even a dam rdps should be able to front line because --> guard !! this is not a miscomception of the game since this is not a general mmorpg we have guard for a reason cuz ppl need to be hard to kill and this work from melee to rpds and vice versa since they ingore the amor/resistence against each other , the ttk sould be higer, the wounds bar should stop to be so **** elastic which is exatly what so many skill player are calling l2p issue and all this dam skill which player are mask behind is just a dam cry wall to use cheese tactic which not let play your enemy by discover the new ultimate combo that proc all stuff you have togheter and cheese the way out of your enemy.

destru have just 1 too good thing which is the 20% mara tactic, even PB is not OP and is functional to how mara work which he dosen't have the same burst or target swap ability that a sorc/choppa/we have.

order got 99% of the original and unique skills in game, passive broken stuff some of which stack with each other, CD decrease on 1 tank which make their bomb up 100% of the time it also make cleanse better to destru version which mean take a choppa which is inferior to a sorc/bw or go home + 2 always working ranged KD to random throw around when you need which make order kite also superio to destru

And that's just a start. Wtf a chosen have over a kobs? a need to spec crit tactic which require 2h to apply or is uselss since all kobs buff are aoe/g passive, dont stack with challenge, can be cleanse, also take 1 tactic slot. One wounds debuff which can be easily parry, the most hard panic button to use since can be defend, cleanse, require a def to be used and AP. While screw they have vigilance!!!!!! there are so many things wrong with the order side we could write a book about it.
1 **** book on how every single damnit class out play our in tools and stacking stats but no all the world talk about how much in that single niche 6vs 6 world 2x dok/chosen+bo is too good. Which is not really relevant since sc are for most part 12 vs 12.

[Arteker616]

We have played with rank 40 morales and morale pumping tactics for no more theen a couple months.

Yes. And strangely, the forum is not filled with people complaining about how the game is ruined because of standard morale gain. The only problem we have is that a few tactics which interface with Morale and were balanced around the old system are out of balance. Let me compare that to such topics as:

- Pounce
- Proc meta
- Flames of Fate / Ensnare
- Destroy Confidence

Pounce is a good example of what happens when there's actually a problem. Topic after topic after topic... yet very little talking about morale gain. Hmm.

1. 10 seconds of 60 seconds is not 1/3 of the time.

2 tanks @ DfV / YSMBD? = 33% uptime.

u seriously comparing pounce a spam attack wich not just gave a class unparell mobility and make nearly imposible to the faction faced it to kite a white lion to bo and chosen morale pumper?.abilitys wich actualy need a guard to be efective mostly to be fast avalaible in a time most the user mdps tanks are underperforming agaisnt the other realm.

as someone posted above doing it u will single cripple a whole faction defensive line in a momment the dominance of the other in terms of dps and mdps is nearby total aswell with other utilitys wich their tank line can offer ,

[Azarael]

u seriously comparing pounce a spam attack wich not just gave a class unparell mobility and make nearly imposible to the faction faced it to kite a white lion to bo and chosen morale pumper?.abilitys wich actualy need a guard to be efective mostly to be fast avalaible in a time most the user mdps tanks are underperforming agaisnt the other realm.

as someone posted above doing it u will single cripple a whole faction defensive line in a momment the dominance of the other in terms of dps and mdps is nearby total aswell with other utilitys wich their tank line can offer ,

Perhaps you should read and understand before you post.

The context was the morale gain rate on RoR, NOT the morale pumps. The point was that big problems that ruin the game (as some claim lack of live morale gain is) get complained about and they get complained about heavily. Pounce and siege weapons in the latest builds of RvR are good examples. Few ever complained about slower morale gain, probably because not having M#s thrown around like water and morale bombing was a good thing.

Now, if you're going to try to persuade me that your entire faction is so weak that you need a 75% damage reduction with 33% uptime, well... I'd really advise against it, because if you are seriously going to paint your faction as that weak then I'm going to write you and anyone else who tries it off as a partisan, straight off, until I hear from someone respectable (i.e. someone known to play both sides actively) that Destro does in fact depend upon cycling Immaculate Defense to survive.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

33% uptime? You don't start a fight with m4 up.
If you got a problem with Immaculate Defence then nerf that morale.

Stick to the issue - debunk it or dont post - Penril.

[Razid1987]

Spoiler:

I don't get the big problem with Immaculate Defense. Aren't M2s and M3s the most impactful morale abilities? I rarely even use Immaculate Defense. Most warbands I've been in through the years use morale abilities offensively, not defensively (With the exception of Distracting Bellow, obviously). Most fights are over by the time you get to M4, anyway.

Having played primarily Order from Tier 1 to Tier 3, do I fall under the "someone respectable"-category, or does that not count?

Stick to the issue - debunk it, or refrain from posting - Penril.

[Penril]

Reminder to everyone: read the rules. Next one to break one is getting a warning, escalating to a Balance Discussion forum ban.

[Haojin]

I was playing the game from 2008-2013 and i was always a warband leader [ still actually ]. I'm saying that cause i think i got that "experience" about faction balances. I will keep it short:


About the proposal:

1) Revert morale gain mechanics back to the way they where on live

-I agree about morale gain same as on live.

2) Across the board nerf of all morale gain tactics to account for the gimped morale gain rate

-I totally disagree with that. Here's the reason:

When you fighting on open field, most of the fights ends in 30-40 seconds. That means everyone relying on "early morales" which destro lacks.

Offensive M2 of Order: KotBS [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ IB [Raze] [ 300 damage ] + SM [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ SW [1200 damage] + BW [MT] [1200 damage] + WH [1200 damage] = 6

That means for order warband:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
at least 4 BW [MT] = 4800 damage
maybe 1 SW: 1200 damage

8400 damage.

Offensive M2 of Destruction: CH [Raze] [MT] [ 300 damage ]+ BO [Defaening Beilow] [MT] [1200 damage] + BG [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ Mara [1200 damage] + WE [1200 damage] = 5 , and BO needs to hit M3.

That means for destruction warband:

4 Chosens [MT] = 1200 damage
4 BOs [MT] = 4800 damage , Need M3.
2 Marauders= 2400 damage [ Not using 2 marauders most of the times in warband, you're losing dps pressure a lot ]

8400 damage. If BO's using [Raze] total damage will be:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
2 Marauders= 2400 damage

4800 damage.

The only way for morale dump for destro based around tanks and thats why they need morale tactics.

About the countering the early morale dumps from order is: Marauders.

Currently I lean towards reducing the effectiveness of morale pump and morale drain abilities and tactics as appropriate to fit. There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

If this happens, there is no way to counter order early morale dumps which will break the balance around factions.

[MT] : Morale Tactic
[Raze] : Damage per tick [300]

[Gachimuchi]

I agree with Az here. The fact morales are slow to build is a good thing, but in the case of morale pump tactics they are a relic from the past and need to be brought in line with current morale gain rates.

There is no real counterplay for morale pump --> ID. If an order group cannot score a kill on a Destru group before roughly 45-60 second have passed, they need to disengage completely or they will lose the fight. It is that simple. Order can only get so much leverage out of the Knight's extra crit(especially since Knight's group crit bonus has effectively been halved) to score a kill in that time-frame. Since none of Order's DPS classes have access to a wounds debuff in their meta spec this is much harder for Order to accomplish than Destruction(holy grail of killing people through guard: armor debuff, wounds debuff, toughness debuff and heal debuff all provided by 1 class). People really shouldn't take the debuffing monstrosity that is marauder for granted.

With base morale gain, Order MDPS will not have instant dmg M1 before the enemy tanks have their M4, making morale dump unfeasible. When Destru has M4, it doesn't matter if they dump morales, ID is a button away from rendering their morale dump useless. M4 also has offensive utility in the fact that if Destru tanks get punted when DPS are chasing to secure a kill, it doesn't matter becuase ID has 100ft range.

There is also a lack of morale drain in this game, especially on Order(blorc clobber tactic, marauder crushing blows tactic). Making the ones that do exist viable in some way would be an interesting solution.

[roadkillrobin]

Edit: Went off topic So cleared it.

[Bozzax]

I was playing the game from 2008-2013 and i was always a warband leader [ still actually ]. I'm saying that cause i think i got that "experience" about faction balances. I will keep it short:


About the proposal:

1) Revert morale gain mechanics back to the way they where on live

-I agree about morale gain same as on live.

2) Across the board nerf of all morale gain tactics to account for the gimped morale gain rate

-I totally disagree with that. Here's the reason:

When you fighting on open field, most of the fights ends in 30-40 seconds. That means everyone relying on "early morales" which destro lacks.

Offensive M2 of Order: KotBS [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ IB [Raze] [ 300 damage ] + SM [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ SW [1200 damage] + BW [MT] [1200 damage] + WH [1200 damage] = 6

That means for order warband:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
at least 4 BW [MT] = 4800 damage
maybe 1 SW: 1200 damage

8400 damage.

Offensive M2 of Destruction: CH [Raze] [MT] [ 300 damage ]+ BO [Defaening Beilow] [MT] [1200 damage] + BG [Raze] [ 300 damage ]+ Mara [1200 damage] + WE [1200 damage] = 5 , and BO needs to hit M3.

That means for destruction warband:

4 Chosens [MT] = 1200 damage
4 BOs [MT] = 4800 damage , Need M3.
2 Marauders= 2400 damage [ Not using 2 marauders most of the times in warband, you're losing dps pressure a lot ]

8400 damage. If BO's using [Raze] total damage will be:

8 Tanks= 2400 damage
2 Marauders= 2400 damage

4800 damage.

The only way for morale dump for destro based around tanks and thats why they need morale tactics.

About the countering the early morale dumps from order is: Marauders.

Currently I lean towards reducing the effectiveness of morale pump and morale drain abilities and tactics as appropriate to fit. There's only so many times you can see Immaculate Defense being cycled on cooldown before you feel there's a problem.

If this happens, there is no way to counter order early morale dumps which will break the balance around factions.

[MT] : Morale Tactic
[Raze] : Damage per tick [300]

Thanks for helping us out with a walk through of morale bombing. This is actually the exact reason why morale gain should remain at current level.

Also it highlights exactly why M2 + morale gain tactic on BW should be changed.

Excellent post!


EDIT:
Secondly the cooling effect lower moral gain has had on No Escape, Ensnare, Excommunicate, Death Reaper to name a few imo also is very good for the game as a whole.