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[Gear] State Stabilization

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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wargrimnir
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#31 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:54 pm

ToXoS wrote:
Penril wrote:We are not discussing the "how". We are discussing if there should be stabilization between lower sets and Sov, for example. Yay/Nay? If most people agree (you would be surprised how many out there think "I should have a super advantage over lowbies because I spent way more time!!!") THEN we can discuss how to best implement it.

I'm sure Aza has several ideas and he is just waiting to see the outcome of this thread. Hell, maybe one of you guys can come up with an interesting proposal RIGHT NOW.
I don't think I should have a "super" advantage over lowbies, but a good advantage? of course.
If I spend more time to get better rank 40 gear, I think I deserve to have an advantage over a guy rank 31 in full devastator.
If not, what's the point to have better gear?

Also, this system will make the x-realming issue even nastier.
If this guy rank 31 undergeared can have a GOOD chance to kill a perfectly geared rank 40, just like if he had the perfect gear, then he will not see the point to spend a lot of time on his toon to get this perfect gear. If he doesn't need to have the influence weapons or a full annihilator set to be competitive, then why should he works his ass out to get them?

If he doesn't have to do all of that, then x-realming is not an issue for him, so he will do it without a doubt.
Consider currently we do not experience any significant imbalance due to gear in T4. Ruin is relatively very easy to get, and is statistically comparable to Anni/Merc. The difference from full Anni to full Invader is quite significant, and THAT will be the sort of game state that is acceptable under state stabilization. You will certainly be able to tell the difference of a +2 tier change, however, it will not be the +6 tier change that you experienced on Live that was broken beyond comprehension.

Or, had someone made the appropriate rebuttal that would lead to rejecting this proposal, it could be.
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dur3al
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#32 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:54 pm

I've to agree with Jaycub here:
Jaycub wrote:I guess my first question would be why not just address the creep by crunching the stats on the sets and weapons themselves? I think most of us would rather have the hard numbers, than having an invisible system handle how hard we hit/get hit etc...
If the difference between sets is to high stat-wise, why not simply reduce the stats? And haven't you done that already by reducing 1h weapons from 2% crit to 1% crit, plus a bunch of other items too?

There is far to much overthinking about this, and I honestly cannot see the the main point.
Are you trying to say certain classes/skills/mechanics perform much better if certain stats are stacked to high (end-game sets) which will in return cause balance issues?

If that is the case then it is probably much easier to look at those skills/mechanics themselves no? And quite honestly I don't see that much of a big deal with these "stat-wise power-creeps" as long as everyone have the same availability to it when picking people within the same gear level.
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Keyser
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#33 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:01 pm

Azarael wrote: [...]
Example 1: Critical Hit Rate

Many of you know I'm an enemy of crit stacking. Crit stacking changes the game in the following ways:

- Provides a significant power increase to tactics and abilities which proc on critical hits.

Not much needs to be said here. The proc rate of a tactic or effect is increasing with game state, so the tactic itself becomes more effective than it was before, while other tactics remain constant in effect.

- Provides a significant increase in effectiveness to tactics and mechanics which increase critical damage.

Annaise16 has mentioned previously the idea that a tactic is balanced around granting 10% defense or 10% attack. However, a critical hit rate tactic's value increases in effectiveness as the player stacks crit, to a theoretical maximum of 33% DPS at 100% crit. Because of the way critical damage tactics outperform other tactics when critical hit rate rises, as well as the burst / RNG applications of a lucky string of crits, lack of a critical damage tactic has been cited as a flaw in those classes which do not have them.

The Bright Wizard and Sorcerer mechanic is also affected by this flaw.
[...]
A reason why an increase of the crit rate has such a big influence is the vast difference between crit rate and crit dmg/heal for most dd classes, especially for those with a +crit dmg mechanic or tactic.
One way out of this dilemma could be to increase the crit rate and decrease crit dmg in such way that the average dmg wont get affected (respectively crit heal, average heal).
Spoiler:
Define
x = (crit rate + crit dmg)/2
as the middle between those two values and choose another variable y such that
x + y = crit dmg and x - y = crit rate.
In order to compute the expected value of the outgoing dmg/heal (It should look sth like this: EV = crit rate * (1 + crit dmg) * normal dmg + (1-crit rate)*normal dmg ) one has to multiply crit rate and crit dmg:
crit rate * crit dmg = (x+y)*(x-y) =x^2 - y^2.

So why would it be a good idea to increase the crit rate and decrease the crit dmg?
Since half of the difference (=y) between those two variables has a quadratic influence on the EV, the same increase of crit rate has a bigger impact the lower the crit rate is.
Moreover, buffs/debuffs which are granted by critting could be nerfed. So the impact by the increase of the crit rate vanishes for those buffs/debuffs.

Another effect of this proposal would be that healing will become easier because of the reduction of volatility due to crit dmg/heal. Since the discussion about wether there is too much dmg or too much defense in this game is almost as old as the game itself, I do not want to start to evaluate this impact.
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#34 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:21 pm

Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote:
Consider currently we do not experience any significant imbalance due to gear in T4. Ruin is relatively very easy to get, and is statistically comparable to Anni/Merc. The difference from full Anni to full Invader is quite significant, and THAT will be the sort of game state that is acceptable under state stabilization. You will certainly be able to tell the difference of a +2 tier change, however, it will not be the +6 tier change that you experienced on Live that was broken beyond comprehension.

Or, had someone made the appropriate rebuttal that would lead to rejecting this proposal, it could be.

Except... It was stated that if this proposal is rejected(ie nothing done) then there will be zero balance discussion until end game armor. It was also stated that there will NOT be excessive powercreep period. There will NOT be super crazy crit rates, etc. So, I'm not understanding how anyone could reject this proposal? Power creep is bad. Having someone 1shot you as you enter T4 is bad. Should something be down to rectify this? Yes.

After that it is a discussion as to how. I don't think I am the only one scratching my head over the repeated statements to ignore any implementation and just discuss if it is needed... Our opinion of if it is needed or not is irrelevant, as OP stated multiple times, all that "rejection" would do is close down these subforums, and thereby any ability to discuss this issue at all. So... Wtf? We have no idea how the stats will work on the gear, no idea what it will take to get said gear(currency/RNG wise), no idea when any of this might even be input, etc.

Maybe I just need to reread OP...

Edit: Reread. I must reiterate that I feel strongly about this, and I view all of the problems raised within this post as being very serious and in need of resolution. The availability of the balance forum thus hinges upon finding a resolution to them. Is pretty straightforward. Either this get's fixed, or we lose this subforum. I'm honestly not trying to be a **** or just argue here. But how can you ask us for a Yay or Nay and to ignore all implementation? It is going to get "fixed" regardless, so... Hence my confusion...

if all you wanted was a Yay or Nay, why not just do a locked thread with a Vote?

ReEdit: for the record. I really enjoyed reading aza's thoughts and breakdown on this. And I like the upfront nature of his OP, as well as letting the players know his general thought process towards what he sees as a major issue in gameplay moving forward. As well as a willingness to let us disagree. I'm just confused as to the statements after the OP. I guess to keep the clutter down... but this forum is supposed to get cluttered, hence the extra mods..
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#35 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:57 pm

We are touching most crucial thing in balancing this game. No one have doubts that in long run balanced game will be better and funnier to everyone.
Main reason why I enjoy RoR so much now is that none of my adversary will have better gear than merc/anni. So big differences between sets are bad. Very very bad. It's killed AoR for me. There is no issue for me - change the new sets to kill disproportions from AoR.

How? Simple solutions are the best. Like Jacub said - change stats on new armor and weapons. Easy (I hope) to do, easy to revert. And we will have data to discuss if there is need to do more.
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Thayli
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#36 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:06 pm

I see that people are not grasping the underlying concept of this thread or getting stuck on implementation details. This is not a proposal about crit stacking, which is just an example of an underlying problem as per OP. To steer the conversation in the right direction once more, these are the questions we want answered:

- Is state imbalance something that exists as outlined in the OP?
- Should this be addressed at all? Why (not)?
- Are the suggested solutions acceptable? Why (not)?

Dabbart wrote:if all you wanted was a Yay or Nay, why not just do a locked thread with a Vote?
The intention of this thread is thought confirmation and potential debunking. Fixing something does not mean that it is a case of implementing the OP as is or not at all. However, in this particular case reaching a consensus is mandatory.
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#37 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:33 am

Spoiler:
NAY
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Nycta
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#38 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:47 am

If I understand correctly, the necessity behind the proposal of a system aiming to act as an equalizer between gear and rank gaps as the new sets will be implemented and activity in pvp will rise, perhaps even as a fail-safe to guard against unforeseen issues that will call for immediate attention, furthermore at an inconvenient time or period and that would in any case increase the load of work to be done, is to acquire control over the power creeps that will come from those and the imbalances arising due to the wide variety of abilities and tactics in conjunction with the magnifying factor of conditional stat stacking.

I see the crossroad and I find it fair. As a means to support the balancing process -which has already been, in essence, a redesign for many of the classes and a forced change in their ways of play- through the gear implementation period (let's say till the point in time when the majority of players has obtained Sovereign on at least one or two toons in average), an auxiliary system, if it doesn't become a greater problem of itself, can make the effort and the occasional situations, issues or crises more controllable, and therefore more manageable - hence allowing for more radical changes, faster implementation of gear and I don't know what.

My question is what is the alternative, reverse all changes and disable experimental modes and/or pause all balancing till the, let's say, aforementioned point in time when everyone will have a couple of sets of Sovereign? And then what about the stats on the sets, and the minimum required tuning, if not balancing? That would delay the project and add to the workload.

On the other hand, any system influencing the abstract concept of the state of the game -which is in its actuality, the ways -various as they are- classes, gear and rr is used by the players in the fray- with the intention to enforce stability and suppress power creeps - occational as they may be- , furthermore through percentages and universal modifiers, takes the edge off of the game - as did the crit reduction on best in slot items and the overall de facto reduction in it's acquisition from items - which in some cases also happens to be the edge much needed to give a class a chance against all odds with certain classes/specs/setups. Those situational imbalances, when not extreme or even vulgar, are giving this game its uniqueness and thrill. So as far as an auxiliary system is concerned, it should be flexible, otherwise it will choke those players whose classes will get affected most by it.

The goals and the ways to them are inevitably intertwined as they both produce reality during their existence and to have a vague understanding of either is enough to produce an unbridgeable gap in the communication between us and quite a void to fill when significant changes are proposed.

For instance, part of the problem at hand will be the fact that players putting more hours and effort in it will be disappointed by the difference in power gained, while players that play less often will be oppressed due to the power creep created. Your proposal meets one end at the expense of the other. But your proposal is more complex since you have worked on it, more grounded since you have a better understanding over what can, can't or could be done and stretches even further from our grasp as it enters the domain of intention.

Lets assume for a minute that the above is solved in a way acceptable by both parties mentioned, will mechanisms that enforce flat(or similar) equalization still be considered necessary?

To address the issue in an acceptable way, or at least a satisfying one towards the needs of the prevailing mentality behind the game, and the genre in general, a "charity" system could also work. A way towards it could be like this: the more pieces a player acquires, the more the chances of dropping a crest/medallion of that particular set increase. That would bridge the gap at a chosen speed and satisfy the "I have, you don't" mentality cultivated by the mmorpg companies so far.

This will work if you intend to release sets one or two tiers per period but it would be less efficient if you want to go all out since there are no-lifers out there and I ''ll be of the first to prove it! Again, the gap between us.
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Eathisword
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Re: State stabilization.

Post#39 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:30 am

Azarael wrote:To make it perfectly clear:

Ignore the details of implementation for now.

The focus, for the moment, should be: Is my analysis correct? Does inconsistent state cause balance issues? If not, what part of my post is wrong?
Your analysis is partly correct. Inconsistent state causes balance problems. Some of the reasons you give to explain it, I disagree with though, as well as the proposed solutions. Imo, there are 3 things that drastically change the way people approach the game fights.

1- On use/proc abilities that were provided by gear. Immune to CC, 0% chance to be crit and +insane melee power/crit damage and the such.

2- On use renown ability (renown points stuff generally) : CW and RD. Makes people play very differently then if they didn't have it and causes a big discrepancy between the way 2 groups fights, RD specifically. Makes balancing harder to do, as it impacts dot classes more, as well as anything related to kiting and CC. Imo, the discrepancy in playstyle between 2 evenly geared player, A having 0 renown point to spare and B having 80 points (240 stats points + CW, for example) is a lot more massive than the difference in power and playstyle between a sovereign geared player facing an conq/invader one (give or take 50-100 stats points), if both have 0 renown points spend.

3- Everything crit related - to some extent.

It is my opinion that the difference in stats/resist/armor provided by gear getting better is not mathematically significant enough to drastically change the play from 1 group to another, in the way the 3 points mentioned above can. I explain my thinking below.
Spoiler:
Example 1: Critical Hit Rate
I believe you are correct here. Critical hit rate, when it goes beyond certain point drastically change the way to play. I had already made an example (here : viewtopic.php?f=97&t=18087) with RP +25% heal increase on crit. Which was pointless to use below 12% or so crit. But immensely op past 50%.

Example 2: Armor Stacking
I believe this to be mathematically incorrect, considering there is an absolute hardcap on armor : it mitigates 80% (or 75%, cant remember) maximum of the damage no matter how much you got. And it is applied after toughness. As gear and armor goes up, all physical dps can reach a confortable 50% armor penetration (with or without armor debuff), which means, for a class to truly mitigate 80% of the damage, it would need to stack a ridiculous 7k armor (8,5k facing a mara/WL). This value is not even possible to reach for a sovereign geared IB using racial tactic + 907 armor pot. The thing with armor is, as it increases, so does the value of WS. So, as both values increase with gear, the state of things remains the same imo. A WP stacking 4,4k armor now, facing 40% mitigation, has 60% mitigation. If he pushes 5.5k in sovereign, facing 50% penetration, he now has 62% mit. Nothing has changed.

Example 3: Constant Value Effects
I disagree here, although partly. Procs that are constant, will gain in power as the gear goes up. The massive advantage that they provide is that they are not subject to toughness check and only fight against resist (which are capped quick). Most dps are very close or already softcapped in their main dps increasing stat. Gear increase won't change that. What could change is crit and crit multiplier. If those are out the window on gear, then procs will remain strong, specially on classes that can't max out the dps stats/crit (i.e. tank and dps healer).

The partly disagree is regarding the relative power of procs damage compared to wounds. Now the ratio is high, later it will be lower. Same for constant stats buffs and debuffs. Although, stats buffs are somewhat a nice perk to facilitate customization, as most are on use (from tanks or dps). The stats increasers that suffer most are tactics, as +160 strength start to pale a lot compared to +15% damage when you're already close/or softcapped with gear.

Example 4: Bottom-End Creep
Here it gets interesting. WALL OF TEXT
The state of combat doesn't change in any meaningful way from conqueror all the way to Warlord. The stats and the spikes gets heavier to some extend (not by that much, I will explain in a bit), but the way to fight remains unchanged. For example, as a lot of ''awesome'' premade have experienced so far : you can't rush head-in as a premade to kill a WB like people used to do then
https://youtu.be/z4hzEKZCRUY?t=223
Simply speaking, the prerequisite for that kind of stomping was the -8th pieces bonus on sovereign/5 pieces on WF + the insane mongoloids crit bonus to heal and damage that those sets provided + the lotd cloaks and pocket items.

The stats on the sets themselves mathematically do not provide you with enough power creep to change the nature of RvR play to that point, specially if crit related problems have been dealt with. If there is already a plan to remove the OP set bonus and on use ability (no crit, no CC, damage/healing power and crit, etc), then instating a ''gear item level'' isn't needed, as the difference in stats/armor value between Invader and sovereign, is already kinda small. For example, Sovereign total stats difference to Invader (for IB + I used best Genesis jewels + cloak as sovereign has both jewel and cloak) is 38 stats points and 660 armor, with 5% less % base stuff. This is not enough of a difference to allow anything but a marginally different way to play between 2 groups. Warlord is basically the same as sovereign, if sovereign as no OP procs and on use 8th piece ability.

Where it gets interesting (and where your proposal makes sense) is if you go lower and lower down the gear chain, all the way to now : Annihilator ruin. In the best combo i can find, the stats difference between Annihilator/ruin and Sovereign for IB is a staggering 229 stats points difference and 750 armor (basically, 80 renown points worth of goods). Which is enormous and, imo, enough to change the way you play by a lot. Now, there is 8 gear sets between Anni and sovereign. Although I understand the need to not carebear-give sets away to new people, wanting to slash down an 8 sets gap seems like a complicated solution to a simple problem.

Conqueror/sentinel should be considered rank 1 in T4, with a roughly 100 point stats differential. Then invader/darkpromise/warlord/tyrant are rank 2 (i.e. they compare very well in stats distribution, with about a 50 points stat differential). Sovereign and worn sovereign are slightly above.

Implementing sets like this would already be your solution 2 : you are maxed out items 2 ranks below. The absolute want to make annihilator a T4 sets, creates the need to artificially cap people's gear, only so sets that are too low can compete, specially considering that someone sub rank 40 can wear them, and honestly should not be able to compete in T4 as sub 40 player lacks abilities + tactic slot. But that's is off-topic.

Example 5: Broad Design Change
Self-explanatory. Nothing to say here.
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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: State stabilization.

Post#40 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:49 am

While I agree with the OP in that his highlighted issue are both serious, and need to be addressed. I am not keen on the proposed solution.

Having a system that stabilizes stats between two players is a novel solution to the problem but it creates a few issues of its own.

1. Drive for gear / advancement targets: In an environment where your gear and your enemies gear is balanced with a stabilizing buff, we run into a problem when it comes to drive. Being on the slightly weaker end of the tier gear wize is a huge motivating factor to game play, to not only gear up, but learn ones class. I agree if the gap between the highest and the lowest is too big then it creates massive issues, but it is important to give incentives for people to learn their class better, and to go for higher gear sets. If you are as well off fighting an enemy in devastator than in anni, what pushes you to get anni and to do that grind up?

2. Renown skills advantage: While a stabilizing system would work for gear stats it does also seeming ignore another issue which is renown skills and stats as well. One of the key advantages to the higher RR players was not only the gear but being able to get all the juicy renown abilities, on top of crit, mitigation stats. Stabilizing the stats will certainly help, but it would need to somehow interact with renown abilities as well.

There is also perhaps a simpler solution, although more work in the long run. Simply put, nerf the crap out of the sets. Keep the differences in stats between the sets extremely low. Cut the stat increase from T4 - T5 in half. Make T6 into T5. Make Invader into conq stat levels, and do the same moving up. Having Sov, be at where invader is now. Drastically reduce the armor, offensive stats, mitigation stats, and crit going forward. Make the difference between the sets much smaller and then differentiate with set bonuses. To avoid having one must use set, balance with bonuses and procs. Give one set crit bonuses, but the other a juicy proc, make it so each set has something unique to offer over another set. There are enough unique bonuses and procs to be able to do this in a meaningful way. There were a lot of unique set bonuses that got cut by Mythic in set redesigns that really made sets special. Range increase, key ability cooldown reducers, cast speed / auto attack procs. There are enough that a meaningful amount of sets could be produced and players would have to make some hard choices when it came to what set. High crit set or autoattack speed proc set? Redeploy cooldown reducing set, or weak heal debuff set?

Then drastically increase the renown cost on the higher ranks of all stats. If someone wants to go full crit, make it hurt more renown wise. If they want RD / CW make them pay through the teeth. Scale back the renown advantage via stats. But return some of the unique abilities, like door repair, and siege disable.

This alone would go along way into addressing the stat creep issues, while maintaining a small but manageable gear gap to motivate people to play better, and push for higher level sets.

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