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[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#31 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:22 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
spikespiegel84 wrote:Capping max armor differently for each career?
Now is 4k general, all above if armor is debuffed. Correct?
Keep 4 k for tanks, 3k medium armor, 2,5k light,
2k cloth.
Numbers are random, not my job to balance it. Just to give a clearer sight.
I was thinking something similar
say
80% arm mit cap for heavy armour
65% for medium armour
50% for light armour & clothies (just how much Kevlar plates can an AM stack inside their nightgown? :D)
This is a very good suggestion actually.... However it makes me wonder if this does a TON towards the issue or not.

take cloth wearers at 50% max.

You factor in an armor debuff (even a weak one of say 900) so that "bumps" their soft cap up to ~3,200 armor?. Then you factor in WS which is ~20% on average, so that bumps you up another ~600 armor required....

So "light" armor classes can still over cap armor up to ~ 3.8k and still sit around the 50% cap....

So this really doesnt do much at all to adjust "is armor worth it"...


I still think merely adjusting weapon skill's armor pen to simply be "additive" rather than multiplicative would be fine... Which means if you have 20% ARP and they have 55% Armor. It moots out 20% of the 55% = 35% left over..... Versus right now they would have 44% left over.... So thats a noticeable difference...

It doesnt make sense that I can attack a full armor plate wearer and cut through 20% of their armor, but only cut through 20% of a cloth wearer's armor? Why does it stay the same %? It should be additive so that 20% of a plate wearers armor is more like cutting through 40% of a lighter armor wearers armor.... This is accomplished via making WS multiplicative rather than additive.

it also wouldnt be a MAJOR nerf/change to anything.... So its a great "small step" to try it and see how it works...

If someone has 50%, right now 20% only = a 10% reduction, leaving them 40% reduction to damage. Additive would make it a 20% reduction, leaving them 30%. Its not a HUGE change, but its big enough, where if I throw on 10% more armor pen, it will go FURTHER in negating armor from pots or talis especially on lower armor targets (like light or medium armor)...

This change would affect people closer to 100% armor MUCH less than people with less armor (which is exactly like saying, we should put a "cap" for lower players etc like you proposed above).

It just seems like a much more logical/easier way to adjust armor down... without throwing balance all out of wack, or turning off potions etc etc....... In fact, it actually makes stacking armor OVER 100% better as its all linear... So say 40% armor pen, you can stack up to 115% armor and still hit the cap, where as 40% armor pen against 115% armor CURRENTLY would end up putting that person at 69%.... So this accomplishes the same thing you want: Makes armor more important on tanks, less valuable on cloth classes....


So like I said, making it "additive" rather than multiplicative accomplishes the same thing as having "different caps" but its a MUCH easier change, less impact on balance etc etc.... The end result will be its slightly less favorable (that it is now) for lighter armor wearers to stack armor compared to heavier armor classes...
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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#32 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:28 pm

about armor market, they do not cost so much because they are overused, it's because you can only drop armor fragment and not instead salvage them from itiems.

a21 toughness can cost 19 gold a 150 armor talisman will cost 50g if not more.
Last edited by Tesq on Mon May 08, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bozzax
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Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#33 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:29 pm

Yep this is another turky thread

Any changes to ws penetration will just make it mandatory. Lowering cap for cloth hmm ... I suspect trolling

Improving its def value on the other hand could be worth testing (among with making willpower and ini perform better).

The other stats that underperform so bad not even healers pick them as secondary
Last edited by Bozzax on Mon May 08, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#34 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:34 pm

Id like to see crit use a stat instead of a static vallue that you can't really modify and reduce with iniative . Like you can with toughness vs dps bonus for example
For example lets say weaponskill increase melee and ranged crit chance using this formula, crit = (ws-iniative)*0.025. + Crit modifiers from tactics, mechanics etz. And then just removed the crit from renown. Crit should be something to serve a spec/playstyle type, not just something you're able to just slap on top of allready massive amount of str, bs and int.
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Mon May 08, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spikespiegel84
Posts: 303

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#35 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:34 pm

Exactly. 3k if medium, 2 if cloth.
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Daknallbomb
Posts: 1781

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#36 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:45 pm

Would be cool
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#37 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:49 pm

Here is the math.

The "value" of 20% ARP at various levels.

vs 1600 armor (36%) = 20% ARP = 7.2% reduction. Leaving 28.8% Resistance.
vs 2200 armor (51%) = 20% ARP = 10.2 reduction. Leaving 40.8% Resistance.
vs 3k armor (68%) = 20% ARP = 13.6% reduction. leaving 54.4% Resistance.
vs 3.6k armor (82%) = 20% ARP = 16.4% reduction. Leaving 65.6% Resistance.
vs 4.2K armor (96%) = 20% ARP = 19.2% reduction. Leaving 76.8% Resistance.


On the proposed system:
vs 1600 armor (36%) = 20% ARP = 20% reduction. Leaving 16% Resistance.
vs 2200 armor (51%) = 20% ARP = 20% reduction. Leaving 31% Resistance.
vs 3k armor (68%) = 20% ARP = 20% reduction. leaving 48% Resistance.
vs 3.6k armor (82%) = 20% ARP = 20% reduction. Leaving 62% Resistance.
vs 4.2k armor (96%) = 20% ARP = 20% reduction. Leaving 76% Resistance. (almost no change).

Why this makes such a big difference in the value of armor for lighter classes. Is because of the severity of armor debuffs. This is what currently causes the problem. A slayer has what? 2,200 armor?

He takes an armor pot (say 800) and crabs say 6 150 armor Talis = 900 more.

So a LIGHT armor player can sit at 3.9k armor...
A 1,400 armor debuff brings him down to 2500 armor (~55%). He is attacked with 20% or heck, even 30% ARP. His NET armor then becomes: 38.5% AFTER armor debuffs and ARP..

What if he didnt use armor pot and armor talis?
2200 - 1500 = 700. IDK what 700 is, so lets assume its like 17%. AFTER ARP of 30% = ~11% NET armor.

Well thats a pretty HUGE difference.... 11% mitigated vs 38.5%? Thats largely worth it...

Now on MY proposal?

3.9k - 1400 armor debuff to 2,500 = 55%. - 30% ARP = 25% Net.
vs
2.2k - 1400 to 17%. after ARP = 0% left.

So look at EHP changes.

CURRENT:
6000 HP @ 38.5% mitigation = 9,756 EHP.
vs 6000 HP @ 11% mitigation = 6,741 EHP (So armor increased this by 44.7%!!!!!)
= 3k HP difference = 300 Wounds!!! =


NEW:
6000 HP @ 25% mitigation = 8000 EHP
vs 6000 HP @ 0% mitigation = 6000 EHP (So armor increased this by 30%)
= 2k HP difference = 200 Wounds.
So this is evidence it "brings armor more inline" with other stats... Sure 200 wounds is more than ~110 you might get with 5*22 Wounds talis, but this is where wounds impacts ALL damage, where as armor only does Phys, so against Phys I would expect Wounds to underperform... But it no longer becomes a "no brainer" which to use.


See? Its not a HUGE nerf at all, but lessens the "impact" on armor.... Armor would STILL largely be worth while... but this opens the door for increase value in other stats... like toughness/initiative etc...
Last edited by th3gatekeeper on Mon May 08, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#38 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:54 pm

Bozzax wrote:Yep this is another turky thread

Any changes to ws penetration will just make it mandatory. Lowering cap for cloth hmm ... I suspect trolling

Improving its def value on the other hand could be worth testing (among with making willpower and ini perform better).

The other stats that underperform so bad not even healers pick them as secondary
See the math above. No troll.

It lessens impact of armor, allowing you to make those other stats worth while.

You cant just start buffing other stats like initiative/Willpower/Toughness without first addressing armor... Otherwise youll just have light classes who stack armor AND those others stats become even tankier...

Changes to WS penetration starts to make WS slightly more "on par" with the primary damage stat: STR which is GOOD. This promotes build diversity. You still wont see players ditching STR to go WS because you cant, if you want to get the parry strikethrough to actually hit someone... (especially thinking of Mara's pull situation where you need max STR for it to even hit...)

So this creates a more fun "build" environment where you might see some builds go for max str (like they do now) and other builds go for max weapon skill (and ditch str) youll see less people running armor, more people running wounds (as an example).
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K13R
Posts: 120

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#39 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:54 pm

You people are crazy, healers stack armor cause its the only way to survive. Its not cause the main stat sucks. You wont survive without. Let's say your rocking your fresh minted shammy 1200 armor. You get pounced and armor debuffed down to zero armor kd and rick rolled. Now if you have a 660 armor pot and 6 piece 150 armor talis you have 1560 armor which is close to 30% and you have 50/50 chane to survive that pounce debuff kd lf cs rotation zero chance with out it. Wonder why destro lacks healers extreme cost on armor talis which were not even that expensive on live and the WL of death. If you nerf armor than the cheap burst needs to go also..

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

Post#40 » Mon May 08, 2017 3:57 pm

Cloth armor is 1200 man.

It's around 3200 if you max out armor in every possible way.
Armor debuff -1400, weaponskill pen 40%. Effective armor 1080.

Not stacking armor. 1800 armor
-1400 armor debuff weaponskill 40%, effective armor 240.
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Mon May 08, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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