[SL/Chop] Fierceness/Even The Odds

[Bozzax]

imo bad design to remove GCDs

Why do you think so, this discussion bases around individuals providing reasons for their opinions, not just blanket statements.
Gerv.

[nebelwerfer]

Gerv wrote:
So far points made:
1) The initiative debuff in the current game environment is extreme. While the buff of weapon skill, is a stat

increase hard to find.
2) The crit change may not stack with additional ability values and could be unique.
3) The % dodge/disrupt increase can be covered by other abilities

Discussion going forward:
- Duration of abilities and cooldown, value of initiative debuff, potential adjustm
ents to toughness aspect.
/ENDQUOTE


Read a lot of good posts this last page, and I did some thinking on my own building upon on these ideas.


[Fierceness improve both ini and ws for 20 sec, 1 min CD
Even the Odds improve wounds by 35 for each enemy within 30 ft]
-th3gatekeeper

[Fierceness version might be too much of a blanket buff to pull off. I think some kind of drawback should remain in place to not overtune the class.
Abbd.: And to not completly remove the requirement of awareness/coordination.]
-Darosh

[Things that might make Even the Odds usefull (imo):
1. remove gcd ]
-Skyy



Fierceness: As described above it would very much benefit from both ws and ini, but increasing the duration
aswell would be too strong for a GROUP-wide buff. Keeping what you proposed regarding both WS and Initiative I
suggest you make it a self-buff with a shorter duration and cooldown, like 6-9 sec duration / 30-45 sec CD.
This is more in line with the entire trollslayer tree, with most of it's core abilities having 25-30 sec CD's.

To compare in the skavenslayer/Wrecka tree you have Even the odds/come and get it perfectly aligned with
Retribution/bring it on, two 1 min CD abilities that work well together.

Changing the initiative debuff into a buff seems appropriate with this change, since it has a very short
duration and it is perfect to use before going for a rage dump, and it can even allow you to go full rage for a
short while if you choose.


Even the odds: I really like the wounds buff mentioned by gatekeeper, but I think it would make Fierce Might
(trollslayer tactic that increases crit dmg by 10% for each 10% hp lost) simply too good compared to other
tactics. And it is still not solving a lot of this abilities' problems, namely the GCD, encouraging suicidal
playstyle for max buff and short range of it.
Also, in the OP I stated this is a good "Oh sh*t ability" and that was my mistake. Imo my Oh sh*t abilities should be DETAUNT and FLEE/Charge, not this.

With all this in mind I propose you make it a flat wounds AND toughness buff, which imo will solve these issues.
Splitting the stat to around 115 of each for 10 seconds with a 1 min CD.
(it would add up to a total stat gain of 210-230 depending on how heavily invested you are in the skavenslayer/wrecka tree, slightly more than the stat gain as it is today (210 toughness with 35*6 enemy).)

The reason I want it to be flat is because you never get to use this when fighting lower numbers like 1-3 for a marginal 35-105 stat gain, it's not really worth the GCD. When you are fighting larger numbers like 4-6+ you still want to use it, because it has a overall nice defensive buff.

Furthermore you no longer have to surround yourself with enemies to enjoy it's full effect. The GCD, short
duration and risky nature of it is it's biggest drawbacks, and are with this change solved imo.

Conclusion:
Fierceness should be a self-buff that is more in line with its tree's core abilities, giving windows of
increased ws / initiative for 6-9 seconds every 30-40 seconds. This ability now also has survivability, though for
a short duration.

Even the odds is now a flat 2 stat buff that you can use in ANY situation, even when fighting low numbers. Also it's no longer an "oh sh*t" ability which should be the detaunt / flee.
Now it is rather a general selfbuff where the player can decide when he would want to use it.


Edit: changed the duration of the proposed EtO from 15 sec to 10 sec
Edit2: added some room for the fierceness CD and censored a curse word

[Darosh]

*Third, increase the AA haste by 10 (or 15), whilst keeping the ini debuff portion.

That shouldn't happen, under any circumstances whatsoever - for as long as the itemization remains as is.

You can reach 80% haste on a slayer already, putting you at 0.48s AA - with the 2,4s weapons available from the sc vendors.
(Conq shoulders (10%) + t3 set head (5%) + PFM (50%) + tomeset (15%))

Abbd.:
0.48s AAs are already questionable, but still outside the margin of being outright broken; its 2 hits per second if the offhand does not proc; you are looking at up to 4 hits if it DOES proc.

90% haste would have you sit at 0.24s AAs - thats 4 hits in one second, if the offhand DOES NOT proc; you are looking at up to 8 hits if it does proc.

95% haste would have you sit at 0.12s AAs - thats 9-10 hits in one second, if the offhand DOES NOT proc; you are looking at up to 18-20 hits if it does proc.

Don't repeat:

Spoiler:

Click here to watch on YouTube

Abbd.:

Even the odds: I really like the wounds buff mentioned by gatekeeper, but I think it would make Fierce Might
(trollslayer tactic that increases crit dmg by 10% for each 10% hp lost) simply too good compared to other
tactics.

10/10 for catching that - I didn't even think about that synergy when I read th3's proposal, holy ****... thats what I get for trying to wrap my head around viable solutions to change these murky abilites.

Yes, that would probably break the game, especially when running with coordinated warbands/groups...

Wounds buffs are out of question, as far as I am concerned - otherwise you'd mess with the investment into min/max'd specs; there would be no point considering stacking wounds via talisman/rr to min/max for critdmg if you had access to a wounds buff by default - alternatively you could maintain a ridicoulus uptime of FM with wounds stacking AND buff.
Right now stacking wounds is a choice you <can> make that has a tradeoff in dps to it, and that you'll hardly ever make if you do not run a in a proper 6man that is feeding you crit among other things (SG would be come useless and would allow a WP to pick way too many goodies in a 6man running this schtick *cough*) to break even again.

Before anyone even considers it:
Changing FM to make a wounds buff a viable option would remove about 70% of a Slayer's complexity* available to them/the skillceiling.

*Getting your group to play around FM is one of the most hilarious experiences you can have and adds alot of tension to your play, and in RvR as part of organized warbands you'll try to time the burst with RG to drop your HP in a controlled manner - which is undoubtly one of the things that seperates chaff from wheat.

Abbd.:
Generally I'd steer off from initiave buffs aswell - considering destro almost entirely relies on initiative debuffs to break even with order as it comes to crit.
In any case, I'd like to bring up the option of range/conditions again, which can be used to add drawbacks (in terms of useage/uptime) to otherwise out of bounds stat increases.

Abbd.:
I could also imagine something like this to work out:


Even the Odds:

Spoiler:

Even the Odds, 5-10s duration, 30-40s CD, range varies based on instance, on gcd:

[Abbd.: See at the very end of my post as to why I've added the stacks on hit to this version of EtO aswell.]

a) Stock dumbfire range/targetcheck.
b) Defensive stacks are gained if the Slayer remains idle (=> soft CC on Slayer), drawback stacks are gained via hits; normal - but maybe pulsing - 360° range/targetchecks for the stacks; stacks counteract each other (add/remove benefit or drawback based on conditions below) - that would add a rng/active counterplay element to it.

If enemies in range(20-30ft) > allies in range(20-30ft):
+60 toughness per stack - fullstack (6) +360 toughness - no bonus from mastery.

If allies in range(35-40ft) > enemies in range(35-40ft):
-38 strength - fullstack (6) -228 strength - no bonus from mastery.

a.b.A) If allies in range == enemies in range:
5% parry/disrupt/dodge, flat - no bonus from mastery.
a.b.B) If allies in range == enemies in range:
apply both instances
b.C) If allies in range == enemies in range:
apply both instances, disable stack gain

That would require <proper> awareness of the situation and top-notch positioning - aswell as turn it into a proper defensive cooldown that would (heavily) punish bad use.

Abbd.: Maybe have the stats gained per stack scale based on the conditions listed above to have an easier time balancing it out by changing the amount of stacks

Fierceness:

Spoiler:

Fierceness, 10-15s duration, 30-40s CD, 40ft range, groupbuff (on all instances), on gcd:

Stacks are gained per hit and fade within 1.5-3s, new stacks DO NOT refresh duration of the current stacks (= emergency exit/soft CC on the Slayer).

+60 weaponskill per stack, fullstack (3) +180 weaponskill - no bonus from mastery
A) -25 initiative per stack, fullstack (3) -75 initative - no bonus from mastery
B) +3% static chance to be crit per stack, fullstack (3) +9% chance to be crit - no bonus from mastery

That would yield a better return in weaponskill than the stock version but would have a drawback for the entire group (and help destro in their crit department).

Alternatively combine the two skills, keep the name of EtO:

Spoiler:

Even the Odds, 5-15s duration, 30-40s CD, range varies based on instance, groupbuff (on all instances), on gcd:

a) Stock dumbfire range/targetcheck.
b) Stacks are gained per hit and within 1.5-3s, new stacks DO NOT refresh duration of the current stacks (= emergency exit/soft CC on the Slayer).
c) Defensive stacks are gained if the Slayer remains idle (=> soft CC on Slayer), drawback stacks are gained via hits; normal - but maybe pulsing - 360° range/targetchecks for the stacks; stacks counteract each other (add/remove benefit or drawback based on conditions below) - that would add a rng/active counterplay element to it.

If enemies in range(20-30ft) > allies in range(20-30ft):
+40 toughness; +40 weaponskill per stack - fullstack (6) 240 toughness; 240 weaponskill - no bonus from mastery

A)If allies in range (35-40ft) > enemies in range (35-40ft):
-15 initative per stack - fullstack(6) -90 initiative - no bonus from mastery
B)If allies in range (35-40ft) > enemies in range (35-40ft):
+2% static chance to be crit per stack - fullstack(6) +12% static chance to be crit - no bonus from mastery

a.b.c.A) If allies in range == enemies in range:
5% parry/disrupt/dodge, flat - no bonus from mastery
a.b.c.B) If allies in range == enemies in range:
apply both instances
b.c.C) If allies in range == enemies in range:
apply both instances, disable stack gain

That, too, would require <proper> awareness of the situation and top-notch positioning, would grant a bit of everything (and, too, help destro in their crit department).

Abbd.: Maybe you want to opt for the initiative version of the debuff to properly counter the 240 toughness/240 weaponskill - seems more reasonable than the static crit in this instance, considering the 240 weaponskill will push the limits in regards to natural avoidance kicking in for the enemies on the receiving end if proper debuffing is going on.
Don't forget the groupbuff aspect of it as it comes to risk/reward if you think about adjusting numbers and stuff.
Abbd.: Maybe have the stats gained per stack scale based on the conditions listed above to have an easier time balancing it out by changing the amount of stacks instead.

[[
Note: I've fixed some of the arguably absurd numbers I've come up with initially - however, the numbers are merely for demonstration purposes.
Note: Readded gcds, there is no reason for those iterations to be off gcd.
Note: Considering the hefty drawbacks these iterations (Fierceness + combined skill) would yield for the entire group I don't see a reason why they should have particularly high CDs - they will open up a group for punishment if they are (frequently and) badly used.
]]

Another alternative would be to turn those skills into PBAoE's with drawbacks in range and CD; keeping target conditions but getting rid of gcd; upping the stats a tiny bit whilst changing initative to static chance to be crit - either as groupbuff or singlebuff.
The targetting of the PBAoE would work as gcd and require the Slayer to get off his target for atleast a few seconds to find a good area to drop it on or require planning to get the most out of the lack of gcd.

Abbd: In the same notion as the latter: one could apply range/targetchecks for the stacks in the suggestions above that work like cones (flurry-esque) and bind the stack gain in any case to the attacks made. The 360 arc range/targetcheck is - regardless of any changes made - unfeasible.

Abbd.: As for the choppa equivalents: I'd opt for initiative and wound buffs across the board, that'd counteract some of the crit order has floating around and help alleviating the impact of initiative debuffs that are flung around by order otherwise.

Abbd.: This whole thing might be a overkill after all; don't even know whether even half of it could be implemented without full client control - much less whether it should be, lol.


E: Words and stuff.

[Bozzax]

I see a lot of op suggestions in this thread that targets making these abilities bread and butter in the std chp/slay rotation.

personally i think they only should get minor tweaks and should remain abilities that yields most when used at the right moment (Skill needed).

I'd start with small things like lowering CDs and possibly reducing ini debuff to more common levels as crits simply go bananas with current level.

Final thought Slayer performs on an entirely different level then choppa and tbh there is a signifficant risk to overbuff Slayers.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

I see a lot of op suggestions in this thread that targets making these abilities bread and butter in the std chp/slay rotation.

personally i think they only should get minor tweaks and should remain abilities that yields most when used at the right moment (Skill needed).

I'd start with small things like lowering CDs and possibly reducing ini debuff to more common levels as crits simply go bananas with current level.

Final thought Slayer performs on an entirely different level then choppa and tbh there is a signifficant risk to overbuff Slayers.

I second that.

As I've stated in my post, I don't necessarily consider the things I've suggested to be in the realm of the <possible> by any means.
But all things considered, upping the skillfloor of this class cannot hurt it, it would very likely even the odds (*harhar*) between Slayer and Choppa by making it more difficault to actually make use of its potential.

Changing these two skills in a way that baits bads into blowing up their own group would do just that.

But yes, I generally do agree with your points.

[Gerv]

2 weeks are up, class is over, locking.