Old Renown rank system

[roadkillrobin]

If you get the greatest vallue/points for the lowest abillity rank, then the higest renown rank players gonna be able to cover alot more ground in both defense and offense. Thats way more broken then highest renown being specialized in their field. Its basicly like playing t1 lowbie twinks that deals full dmg and IMPOSSIBLE to kill due to their defences vs t1 pugs with green gear. If you ever faced the T1 twinks while trying to do t1 you know exactly what I mean.

[Tesq]

for me a mixed system should use 1.4 value and put all crits and avoidance after have use rr40 point.


Renow skill should be aviable only at rr 60

and you could only take 1/3

cant have both cleanse and resolute defense for exemple.

You sould spend renown point 1 by 1 not 5 or 10 at time this way you can just progress straight your charater and not waste or temp use renown points on secondary stats.

so for exemple 1rp = 4 tough /20 rp = 80 tough

for avoidance

1rp= 0,5 block% / 20rp = 10%

and doge/disrupt whould be togheter. (aka general rdps avoidance got fixed in 1.4 system parry work for all melee so 1 rp should work vs every rdps if spent defensivly).

1rp= 1% dodge +disrupt / 20rp = 20% dodge+disrupt

or get split in two but half the rp cost for the half of the currently ammount

[roadkillrobin]

RD was addeded as response to 7 second AoE staggers being a I win button. Issue solved with the duration on the staggered lowered. RD can be terminated.

Cleansing Wind was added in conjunction with Trivial Blows as a response to BW/Sorc dot stacking killing people in 1 timestamp. Limit the amount of dmg these classes can do with a Renown system and CW can be removed.

Quick Escape along with a bunch of other passive and active skills were added without any ballancing at all in a experimental way and give classes stuff they shouldn't have. These I hope won't ever be activated.

[Dabbart]

QE is active. And nearly every single class has access to a speed proc weapon ATM...

[th3gatekeeper]

If you get the greatest vallue/points for the lowest abillity rank, then the higest renown rank players gonna be able to cover alot more ground in both defense and offense. Thats way more broken then highest renown being specialized in their field. Its basicly like playing t1 lowbie twinks that deals full dmg and IMPOSSIBLE to kill due to their defences vs t1 pugs with green gear. If you ever faced the T1 twinks while trying to do t1 you know exactly what I mean.

Im not so sure about this... Frankly... How is this true?

If stats are worth while, with diminishing returns, well... there are only so many stats to get before they dont matter as much...

Currently, not many players get stats, because they are not worth it. So a RR 50 will likely have what?
9% crit, CW and RD?

What will a RR 35 have?
9% crit, and 5 points for stats? So lets say they grab 16 stats in primary stat. Well thats a pretty big difference.... CW+RD versus 16 "Int? or 16 Str? Thats only ~ 1% more damage... thats a HUGE gap.....


On my system, lets say the RR50 player does try and max stats. Lets assume he is a BW... Well now he is faced with a large tradeoff.... Does he go crit? or Int/Wounds combo? Or RD? or CW? Whats the "build" because they are all viable options? Lets say he spends 15 in crit (now 5%) and drops 10 points on stats: Int (54) and then grabs RD/CW...

Now compare to the RR35 guy. Maybe he grabs 2% crit, but uses 20 points for Wounds/Int (54 on each) and then picks up CW.

Well those builds are fairly comparable.... rather than a "clear advantage"
RR50: 3% more crit + RD
RR35: 54 more wounds.

Well we would probably agree RR50 is "better" but its not as clear cut as it is now....

So I dont see how its any different. If anything, itll make stats more appealing to all these other things (crit/RD/CW/etc.) and youll see more builds open up ALOT more.

I know for RDPS classes, they likely arent going to drop a bunch of points in stats like Toughness/Initiative/etc... Most RDPS have their primary DPS stat already soft capped... So its not like stats are going to help a TON.... The fact of the matter is... for High RR people the build they run of CW/RD/9% crit etc will probably stay the same...

So what changed? The lower RR players who dont have 50+ points to spend, get to instead, invest points in STATS to make up the difference. Simply put, a player who has 8 stats right now, versus 10.... The 10 stat person grabs something like CW or RD or 3% crit... the 8 stat person would likely just grab 2 stats... which CURRENTLY only give like 12 stat each = PATHETIC....

on my system8 RR = 30 stats each stat. Well thats ALOT better now....

Like I said, rather than trying to "force everyone" to do X and start nerfing things... why not bring the lackluster thing UP.. In doing so you create more options, rather than less, and let people pick what they want to do... Maybe instead of grabbing another SET BONUS, people instead grab a 3% crit shoulder, and use that renown (10 points) to INSTEAD grab 54 stats (on my system) of their choice instead.... See? It opens up gear options, build options, etc.

If CW/RD/Etc. are all SOOOO good (which they are) then making stats BETTER wont impact those builds - itll impact the lower RR builds MORE (who have less choice and are forced to take stats currently at a really poor rate of return...)..

If someone wants to give up 10 points and not get RD or CW... and instead get stats... Well let me ask you, how much Int or STR or Wounds would YOU say is worth CW or RD? 40? Because thats the current system..... 40..... Thats a joke. Even on my suggestion it bumps it up to 54 (which is STILL low).... OR... That person could spread those around, picking up
1 Ini = 12
1 Str = 12
1 Wounds= 12
1 toughness =12
Then grab rank 2 in Wounds/Tough for another 18 each.... Making it:

12 Ini
12 Str
30 Wounds
30 Tough

Vs CW or RD... Well now THAT sounds MAYBE appealing to me.... Nice even stat distribution.....

for me a mixed system should use 1.4 value and put all crits and avoidance after have use rr40 point.
Renow skill should be aviable only at rr 60
and you could only take 1/3
cant have both cleanse and resolute defense for exemple.
You sould spend renown point 1 by 1 not 5 or 10 at time this way you can just progress straight your charater and not waste or temp use renown points on secondary stats.
so for exemple 1rp = 4 tough /20 rp = 80 tough
for avoidance
1rp= 0,5 block% / 20rp = 10%
and doge/disrupt whould be togheter. (aka general rdps avoidance got fixed in 1.4 system parry work for all melee so 1 rp should work vs every rdps if spent defensivly).
1rp= 1% dodge +disrupt / 20rp = 20% dodge+disrupt
or get split in two but half the rp cost for the half of the currently ammount

Tesq, this is my fear... You have avoidance only after RR40, which basically nerfs all MDPS and tanks... On my tank, I use the avoidance stuff, especially block/parry for guard damage. Remove those and ill take SO much more guard damage and regular damage. So all this does is increase RDPS' DPS because they wont get blocked/dodged/disrupted as much... This game is already REALLY RDPS heavy... All I see is this increasing that even more to the point that I may just stop playing...

I DO like this idea of having each thing cost 1 point, however things like crit - you cant really do this.... I dont think they can do .5% of stuff..

I think locking Renown ABILITIES behind a RR rank - such as 40 is not a bad idea... however I STILL suggest using a diminishing returns value on STATS for renown ranks. It shouldnt be 4:1 - thats not a very good return... You spend 20 freaking renown points and get 80 stat? thats just SILLY... Then there is also no reason to spread stuff around and invest in different stats... Because they all give the same return....

I can spend 20 points and get 10% block or 20% parry or something... vs 80 stats? Thats just dumb... 1% Parry is EASILY worth more than 4 stat.

just like with Parry/block/dodge/disrupt/crit - all these things are diminishing returns. As you spend more to "specialize" you get less and less benefit. Same should be for stats. You should get a LOT more for cheap ranks, and as you go deeper in that specific stat, you get less return. So you can become a "jack of all trades" by investing in several stats - best return on investment but less focused... OR you can spend MORE to focus on 1 stat and get less return on those RR investments...

[mistgun]

+1 for old renown system.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

If you get the greatest vallue/points for the lowest abillity rank, then the higest renown rank players gonna be able to cover alot more ground in both defense and offense. Thats way more broken then highest renown being specialized in their field. Its basicly like playing t1 lowbie twinks that deals full dmg and IMPOSSIBLE to kill due to their defences vs t1 pugs with green gear. If you ever faced the T1 twinks while trying to do t1 you know exactly what I mean.

Im not so sure about this... Frankly... How is this true?

If stats are worth while, with diminishing returns, well... there are only so many stats to get before they dont matter as much...

Currently, not many players get stats, because they are not worth it. So a RR 50 will likely have what?
9% crit, CW and RD?

What will a RR 35 have?
9% crit, and 5 points for stats? So lets say they grab 16 stats in primary stat. Well thats a pretty big difference.... CW+RD versus 16 "Int? or 16 Str? Thats only ~ 1% more damage... thats a HUGE gap.....


On my system, lets say the RR50 player does try and max stats. Lets assume he is a BW... Well now he is faced with a large tradeoff.... Does he go crit? or Int/Wounds combo? Or RD? or CW? Whats the "build" because they are all viable options? Lets say he spends 15 in crit (now 5%) and drops 10 points on stats: Int (54) and then grabs RD/CW...

Now compare to the RR35 guy. Maybe he grabs 2% crit, but uses 20 points for Wounds/Int (54 on each) and then picks up CW.

Well those builds are fairly comparable.... rather than a "clear advantage"
RR50: 3% more crit + RD
RR35: 54 more wounds.

Well we would probably agree RR50 is "better" but its not as clear cut as it is now....

So I dont see how its any different. If anything, itll make stats more appealing to all these other things (crit/RD/CW/etc.) and youll see more builds open up ALOT more.

I know for RDPS classes, they likely arent going to drop a bunch of points in stats like Toughness/Initiative/etc... Most RDPS have their primary DPS stat already soft capped... So its not like stats are going to help a TON.... The fact of the matter is... for High RR people the build they run of CW/RD/9% crit etc will probably stay the same...

So what changed? The lower RR players who dont have 50+ points to spend, get to instead, invest points in STATS to make up the difference. Simply put, a player who has 8 stats right now, versus 10.... The 10 stat person grabs something like CW or RD or 3% crit... the 8 stat person would likely just grab 2 stats... which CURRENTLY only give like 12 stat each = PATHETIC....

on my system8 RR = 30 stats each stat. Well thats ALOT better now....

Like I said, rather than trying to "force everyone" to do X and start nerfing things... why not bring the lackluster thing UP.. In doing so you create more options, rather than less, and let people pick what they want to do... Maybe instead of grabbing another SET BONUS, people instead grab a 3% crit shoulder, and use that renown (10 points) to INSTEAD grab 54 stats (on my system) of their choice instead.... See? It opens up gear options, build options, etc.

If CW/RD/Etc. are all SOOOO good (which they are) then making stats BETTER wont impact those builds - itll impact the lower RR builds MORE (who have less choice and are forced to take stats currently at a really poor rate of return...)..

If someone wants to give up 10 points and not get RD or CW... and instead get stats... Well let me ask you, how much Int or STR or Wounds would YOU say is worth CW or RD? 40? Because thats the current system..... 40..... Thats a joke. Even on my suggestion it bumps it up to 54 (which is STILL low).... OR... That person could spread those around, picking up
1 Ini = 12
1 Str = 12
1 Wounds= 12
1 toughness =12
Then grab rank 2 in Wounds/Tough for another 18 each.... Making it:

12 Ini
12 Str
30 Wounds
30 Tough

Vs CW or RD... Well now THAT sounds MAYBE appealing to me.... Nice even stat distribution.....

for me a mixed system should use 1.4 value and put all crits and avoidance after have use rr40 point.
Renow skill should be aviable only at rr 60
and you could only take 1/3
cant have both cleanse and resolute defense for exemple.
You sould spend renown point 1 by 1 not 5 or 10 at time this way you can just progress straight your charater and not waste or temp use renown points on secondary stats.
so for exemple 1rp = 4 tough /20 rp = 80 tough
for avoidance
1rp= 0,5 block% / 20rp = 10%
and doge/disrupt whould be togheter. (aka general rdps avoidance got fixed in 1.4 system parry work for all melee so 1 rp should work vs every rdps if spent defensivly).
1rp= 1% dodge +disrupt / 20rp = 20% dodge+disrupt
or get split in two but half the rp cost for the half of the currently ammount

Tesq, this is my fear... You have avoidance only after RR40, which basically nerfs all MDPS and tanks... On my tank, I use the avoidance stuff, especially block/parry for guard damage. Remove those and ill take SO much more guard damage and regular damage. So all this does is increase RDPS' DPS because they wont get blocked/dodged/disrupted as much... This game is already REALLY RDPS heavy... All I see is this increasing that even more to the point that I may just stop playing...

I DO like this idea of having each thing cost 1 point, however things like crit - you cant really do this.... I dont think they can do .5% of stuff..

I think locking Renown ABILITIES behind a RR rank - such as 40 is not a bad idea... however I STILL suggest using a diminishing returns value on STATS for renown ranks. It shouldnt be 4:1 - thats not a very good return... You spend 20 freaking renown points and get 80 stat? thats just SILLY... Then there is also no reason to spread stuff around and invest in different stats... Because they all give the same return....

I can spend 20 points and get 10% block or 20% parry or something... vs 80 stats? Thats just dumb... 1% Parry is EASILY worth more than 4 stat.

just like with Parry/block/dodge/disrupt/crit - all these things are diminishing returns. As you spend more to "specialize" you get less and less benefit. Same should be for stats. You should get a LOT more for cheap ranks, and as you go deeper in that specific stat, you get less return. So you can become a "jack of all trades" by investing in several stats - best return on investment but less focused... OR you can spend MORE to focus on 1 stat and get less return on those RR investments...

So make a system like I did and let us have a look at it so i can make some builds and compare then.

[th3gatekeeper]

So make a system like I did and let us have a look at it so i can make some builds and compare then.

I did:

Spoiler:

How it SHOULD be is something like this: (created by mimicing the diminishing returns on dodge/disrupt)

(1) R1 = 12 stat
(3) R2 = 18 stat (30 total)
(6) R3 = 24 stat (54 total)
(10) R4 = 30 stat (84 total)
(14) R5 = 36 stat (120 total).

I didnt quite understand your system. It came across as 100% linear, zero choice, all forced progression. RR should be a place where we can actually explore builds and it should afford us even more "choice" when it comes to items as well!

I agree - everyone stacking RR abilities is a problem and the ease of crit is a problem.... So my stat suggestion doesnt address that, but it DOES address the "relative" power of those things. Right now they are the "go to" because with those same 10 points I cant get much in the way of other options, so they are more powerful than other options... So why not increase the "other options" to make them more appealing than "hur hur crit, RD, CW" because nothing else looks good...

[roadkillrobin]

So what about crit, crit reduction,
What about glasscannons thats now able to get both insane dmg and really good defence?
What about Active abillties?

What i was trying to do was stopping classes from getting both full crits and full power. while still having acess to defensive tools. If you want to spec for power you should need to sacrfice on crits and defence. Thats how all the damn mastery trees are designed to work.

[Rozackroo]

So what about crit, crit reduction,
What about glasscannons thats now able to get both insane dmg and really good defence?
What about Active abillties?

What i was trying to do was stopping classes from getting both full crits and full power. while still having acess to defensive tools. If you want to spec for power you should need to sacrfice on crits and defence. Thats how all the damn mastery trees are designed to work.

I agree that if you go full offensive you shouldn't be able to get all defensive good stuff aswell. However the old system doesn't do this at all. It will just push high rr people a lot over low rr people. While low rr guys are stuck with close to useless stats (int for somebody on int cap or something else you don't really need) high rr people get good things (crit). Just a bad idea to be honest. The current system is good get what you want just the balancing is crazy stupid. Stats are to expensive compared to crit, same with rd and cw.

+RR benefits is the only thing which is actually balanced on every class. Everyone has access to the same skills (costs on certain things as already written isn't).
Balancing should be done on how those benefits effect certain classes and not the other way around.
For example everyclass with crit dmg tactics/mechanism will overperfom the more crit they get. For me that's the biggest balancing problem this game has.