[Review] [BW/Sorc] Mechanic

[lefze]

I would definetly be against just giving some statdecrease as punishment for not spending the mechanic, it just feels like a very lazy fix.

I would rather recommend extending the mechanic in a way that rewards spending it, and at the same time give us better ways of spending it. Of course the existing kit would probably need some tuning to keep things balanced (especially BW), but I'm sure you can handle that just fine.

For example make an additional bar that tracks the amount of mechanic you have spent over the last x seconds, when it's full you get a nice bonus for your next spell (might be a good idea to add an ability to let us control when to activate said bonuses), at the cost of x amount of mechanic. This bonus might be the effect of Flashfire (which I would also remove from BW due to balance, and the fact that a mechanic like this would be much more interesting anyways), bigger AoE cap for insta-AoEs or whatever your creative minds come up with. One suggestion would be to not only give one ability to activate to choose exactly when to use the mechanic, but several with different effects to give meaningful choices.

[Penril]

This is the last time I say this: this is not about "let's nerf/buff this class!!!". This is about never needing to pay attention to the mechanic (except for when building it up; once you get to 100, you forget it even exists).

Like I said, the classes might possibly even receive buffs AS LONG as they actually need to use/play their mechanic.

[Tesq]

A) you need to punish the "time" a bw/sorc spend in the max potential not the simple fact they are inside the max possibility of their meccanic. So any malus give will be give after an X ammount of time and will PERSIST after an x ammount of time. So that you need to think in advantage to what do and not consume meccanic in few seconds to prevent immediate problem. If you pass a long time in MAX meccanic you will have a fair ammount of time where enemy will have an advantage.

After x sec of y meccanic point you will recive 5 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+5 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 10 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+10 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 15 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)

B) difference of st vs aoe: punish more the meccanic (not hard one but relevant) if aoe, due how backlash work you still get the same backlash dmg if you hit 1 ppl or 9. Fix this by make BW/Sorc to be able to recive backlash from any ppl hit every aoe skill.

C) make too easy for sorc/bw reach 100 meccanic so that the will be costantly under the penality and they will be forced to look at meccanic points.
-> you can do this by put meccanic gain once every tick instead once every skill this will force bw/sorc to reduces the meccanic costantly. Or the the gain will be passive every x second of combat + skills.

D) do not promote a finisher meccanic like in previously suggestion as this just push for auto meccanic regulation where after x skill always a finisher will follow and problem solved (no skill in meccanic use, no self awareness).

->@zanillos also right there..... generally speaking about guard working vs backlash.... that is dumb.

[Scrilian]

Spoiler:

You don't forget that it exists, ever, because you die to it, a lot. Be it pug, small or large scale with backlash being roughly 15% hp hits. You nuke yourself to death even when applying simple dots and heavily require on healers to keep you up at all time, where any interuption/cc might cost BW/Sorc life.

Idk if ranged versions of BW/Sorc even need a forced spender, or any kind of penalty for this matter, and as far as boming goes - spend it on Scorched Earth/Surging Pain if you need to kill something on the move.

I wouldn't mind seeing actual proposals instead of brainstorming shitfest, with the "cold hard" proofs that a super paper-thin glasscanon of a class w/o any kind of self-sustain/armor/high wounds needs a nerf or even alteration in terms of it's mechanics.
I'm behind Aura on this one, it's already a masochism to pug as BW as it is and you require a ton of support to be viable to actually bomb anyone.

Don't want to brainstorm? Don't post here. User received a warning for this post.

[lefze]

A) you need to punish the "time" a bw/sorc spend in the max potential not the simple fact they are inside the max possibility of their meccanic. So any malus give will be give after an X ammount of time and will PERSIST after an x ammount of time. So that you need to think in advantage to what do and not consume meccanic in few seconds to prevent immediate problem. If you pass a long time in MAX meccanic you will have a fair ammount of time where enemy will have an advantage.

After x sec of y meccanic point you will recive 5 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+5 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 10 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+10 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 15 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)

B) difference of st vs aoe: punish more the meccanic (not hard one but relevant) if aoe, due how backlash work you still get the same backlash dmg if you hit 1 ppl or 9. Fix this by make BW/Sorc to be able to recive backlash from any ppl hit every aoe skill.

C) make too easy for sorc/bw reach 100 meccanic so that the will be costantly under the penality and they will be forced to look at meccanic points.
-> you can do this by put meccanic gain once every tick instead once every skill this will force bw/sorc to reduces the meccanic costantly. Or the the gain will be passive every x second of combat + skills.

D) do not promote a finisher meccanic like in previously suggestion as this just push for auto meccanic regulation where after x skill always a finisher will follow and problem solved (no skill in meccanic use, no self awareness).

How is just dumping the mechanic for the sake of dumping any different from the "finisher mechanic"? If anything having a meaningful way of dumping it requires more decision making than just pressing a button to dump it because you HAVE to.

[Aurandilaz]

This is the last time I say this: this is not about "let's nerf/buff this class!!!". This is about never needing to pay attention to the mechanic (except for when building it up; once you get to 100, you forget it even exists).

Like I said, the classes might possibly even receive buffs AS LONG as they actually need to use/play their mechanic.

Have you done any bombing lately? Surging Pain, Scorched Earth? You use those as part of rotation, and you learn to not drop below 60-80 for too long, after which you climb back to 80-100 and keep repeating a varying rotation that does include the occasional drop according to situation at hand.
AoE spec does include the use of SP/SE, problem is that the other 2 trees lack similar skill in their rotation, meaning essentially that for ST spec you don't need to drop below 100 or care to look at points as long as you see it at full, all's fine.

Designate each Path/tree to have an ability that is part of an useful rotation to spend DM/CB on.

[Arbich]

This is the last time I say this: this is not about "let's nerf/buff this class!!!". This is about never needing to pay attention to the mechanic (except for when building it up; once you get to 100, you forget it even exists).

Like I said, the classes might possibly even receive buffs AS LONG as they actually need to use/play their mechanic.

But this is an important question after all, not?

Most proposals in this thread would be nerfs to the classes, because it seems most people (me included) thought it is about giving sorc/bw harsher penalties at higher mechanic points. If it is about making the mechanic more important, buffs connected to the mechanic would be also possible (I would say the most obvious buff is a increased disrupt strike through at higher mechanic points) and this would justify harsher penalties for higher mechanic points.

If not, I take the warning

[Tesq]

A) you need to punish the "time" a bw/sorc spend in the max potential not the simple fact they are inside the max possibility of their meccanic. So any malus give will be give after an X ammount of time and will PERSIST after an x ammount of time. So that you need to think in advantage to what do and not consume meccanic in few seconds to prevent immediate problem. If you pass a long time in MAX meccanic you will have a fair ammount of time where enemy will have an advantage.

After x sec of y meccanic point you will recive 5 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+5 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 10 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)
After x+10 sec of y meccanic point you will recive 15 sec of malus z (self refrsh after 5 sec)

B) difference of st vs aoe: punish more the meccanic (not hard one but relevant) if aoe, due how backlash work you still get the same backlash dmg if you hit 1 ppl or 9. Fix this by make BW/Sorc to be able to recive backlash from any ppl hit every aoe skill.

C) make too easy for sorc/bw reach 100 meccanic so that the will be costantly under the penality and they will be forced to look at meccanic points.
-> you can do this by put meccanic gain once every tick instead once every skill this will force bw/sorc to reduces the meccanic costantly. Or the the gain will be passive every x second of combat + skills.

D) do not promote a finisher meccanic like in previously suggestion as this just push for auto meccanic regulation where after x skill always a finisher will follow and problem solved (no skill in meccanic use, no self awareness).

How is just dumping the mechanic for the sake of dumping any different from the "finisher mechanic"? If anything having a meaningful way of dumping it requires more decision making than just pressing a button to dump it because you HAVE to.

because finsher meccanics is istantly when you are in danger you drop finisher (like choppa/slayer) and istatly uou have no malus so you can exploit the meccanic till you want then simple drop it entirely.. smart ppl will exploit this for max rewards less trade off. This is work better on rdps as numerous other things due give you more time to react....

[Penril]

@Arbich it is about having harsher penalties while at 100% mechanic (backlash is a joke; i don't care what you guys say, If i have a healer I NEVER worry about backlash). If we need an extra "oomph" at lower-mechanic levels, or on mechanic-dumping skills, that can be discussed too ofc.

Also, for those who mention that it would be hell for pugs: read the BDF rules. We don't balance around pug/solo play.

[Aurandilaz]

@Arbich it is about having harsher penalties while at 100% mechanic (backlash is a joke; i don't care what you guys say, If i have a healer I NEVER worry about backlash). If we need an extra "oomph" at lower-mechanic levels, or on mechanic-dumping skills, that can be discussed too ofc.

Are you playing sorc/WB in endgame in warband vs warband fighting?

Because if you were, you would really start to care about backlash.

Outside of roflstomping pugs, you actually face coordinated morals and massive amount of debuffs flying around, whilst your Sorc/BW stands at the centre of the bomb soaking debuff after another until either your enemy sorc/BW enter the point of breaking and backlash themselves to death, or your own tanks and healers are pushed to breaking point and you backlash yourself to death. And yes, whilst you are doing bombing, you do look at your mechanic points and end up using SP/SE A LOT.