WE/WH Elixirs Cooldowns

[Aurandilaz]

Spoiler:

Let me make another argument why "EoC/SoM" with 7 sec effect every 30 sec is still not "Overpowered"

from October patch notes where defensive mechanics were changed:

-Dodge/Disrupt/Parry now takes the opposing stats into consideration in a different way, by adding onto the 'high-end' of the 100 roll used for calculating the chance, with a hard cap of 75% of any of these. The proper formula is now used for calculating parry % from weaponskill/strength (and dodge/disrupt-appropriate stats, respectively, they're all the same), it is identical to the one in the client.

EoC is a buff that grants 100 Disrupt for 7 seconds. WE stats show 100 disrupt. Yet, the patch notes point that 75% is the real effective hardcap. Then we monitor in the attackers offensive values, with BW/Sorc using BIS gear gains about 10% strikethrough. Either it remains at 75 effective, or "real" rate drops to 65.
Yet, we know that the current calculation includes 100+attacker offensive value, which we assume is +40 using softcap stats (common for magical casters)
Meaning effective you have WE "using 100 disrupt elixir" that has effective change of Disrupt at 65/140 or at 75/140 depending how we interpret the currently existing mechanisms which still are somewhat hard to fathom as many changes messed with many pre-existing formulas we were so used to previously.
65/140 is effective Disrupt of 46%. 75/140 is 53%. Yet from my WE pov it feels like I disrupt most of the stuff that BW throws at me when I pop the elixir, so I'm not 100% sure if things work as they should or whether my feels are just feels and we would need serious damage testing regarding maximum rate of disrupt and strikethrough values. Though WE Elixir being ignored by BW Burnthrough is just not a feeling, it happens often enough.


Assuming that aforementioned is a correct interpretation of existing rules of Defence mechanic checks, the WE/WH "100% Disrupt" buff is nothing close to 100% guaranteed defensive check.

And regardless, its 7 seconds. Afterwards its "feuer frei", business as usual as the mdps drops down to the floor when faced with good enemy rdps.

edit: I'm wrong

[Aurandilaz]

There is no defensive hardcap, well it may be 800% but to all extents and purposes there isnt

and I dont see myself messing with these abilities any time soon.

Okay, so I'm wrong, good to know.

But is the 100% Disrupt truly 100% disrupt, or does it become 100/140?

Still slightly confused.

[Toldavf]

There is no defensive hardcap, well it may be 800% but to all extents and purposes there isnt

and I dont see myself messing with these abilities any time soon.

Okay, so I'm wrong, good to know.

But is the 100% Disrupt truly 100% disrupt, or does it become 100/140?

Still slightly confused.

I belive 200% was the standard buff as it will still defend 100% of attacks after debuffs.

[catholicism198]

Increasing your chance to disrupt/dodge/block enemy attacks by 100% usually means that you multiply your current disrupt/dodge/block rate by 2- So a 40% chance will become 80%- 20% becomes 40%.

Basically, most people seem to agree that:
a) Disrupt Elixir might be too strong with a 30s CD.
b) Armor ignore Elixir would be fine with a 30s CD.
c) The last elixir would still be crap even with a 10s CD.

Pretty much, but I'd have to say that it should be a 45 second CD. It's a 6 point ability, not a 10 or 14 point one.

If you're looking to enhance a WE/WH's performance for group play then only Insane Power and Destruction should be modified-
The Disrupt/Dodge buff should not even be up for discussion as that really only benefits gankers (1v1s)- a grouped WH/WE will have guard and heals.

[Toldavf]

Increasing your chance to disrupt/dodge/block enemy attacks by 100% usually means that you multiply your current disrupt/dodge/block rate by 2- So a 40% chance will become 80%- 20% becomes 40%.

Not here it doesnt, or has ever done, its +100% to your own stats

Yeah blame lazy original devs for wording stuff poorly.

It could be an interesting change for the defensive seals/elixir but thats a bit off topic for this thread.

[Tesq]

...
c) The last elixir would still be crap even with a 10s CD.

I think Elixir of Blades\VHS need some rework. Cuz this ability have very weak numbers, cancels detaunt, and if WE\WH get focused - something goes wrong and u want press safe abilites. If it was conceived as a melee defense, let it give extra parry, or melee damage absorb, or all melee dmg will be 1 for 7 sec, or CC immune for 7 sec(or any useful protection). If it was conceived as a attacker in the Dot build, then let him add the damage as a witch's brew only weaker, or some proc dmg for 7 seconds, or the next successful attack will impose a DOT an enemy(or any useful increase of damage).

is a crap because external CD dont exist atm, so any aoe use it may had is unavaiable plus we/wh are not even class for aoe since there never been a plan to give em a full aoe set up.

[Aurandilaz]

Another thought, what if VHS/EOB became Parry buff?
But to counter WH getting parry increase from Repel Blasphemy, that could be turned into Pierce Armor mirror? Then you would have very much mirrored Elixirs/Relics, with one for 50% armor passing, one for Disrupt, one for Parry? (still leaves us open to Dodge, which would be nice to get somewhere but I guess that is problem for another day)
Unless people would prefer keeping RB as it, and then maybe turn VHS into anti-Dodge buff? (against kinda only SH - though same way EoC is kinda against only BW with dps AM and dps RP being still very rare sights)

[GodlessCrom]

Is it possible to make it reflect a flat percentage of the damage done to you back to those hitting you? Van Horstmanns Speculum in table top swaps your stats with that of the person attacking you, which would be really terrible in game (though hilarious for bolstered players). But the essential use of it was to counter the high damage dealing ability of combat lords by putting it on a squishy wizard and then hanging him out to dry. An enemy combat hero (like a Chaos Champion, or Paladin on pegasus or something similar) then attacks the wizard to remove him from game, but then gets slapped down when the soft target turns out to be pretty crunchy.

So maybe make it do X% (35, or 50, or whatever) of the damage done to you back to the enemies doing it. I.e. you get crit for 1.4k by boiling blood or word of pain, and the fireclown/bikini wizard takes a percentage of the damage. Maybe limit it only to melee damage? I dunno. But would be a decent defensive cooldown, similar to Touch of Karma in WoW, for those familiar with it.

[Hastykrasty]

So maybe make it do X% (35, or 50, or whatever) of the damage done to you back to the enemies doing it. I.e. you get crit for 1.4k by boiling blood or word of pain, and the fireclown/bikini wizard takes a percentage of the damage. Maybe limit it only to melee damage? I dunno. But would be a decent defensive cooldown, similar to Touch of Karma in WoW, for those familiar with it.

It would be interesting, I thought something similar, but the damege done should be undefendable to be decent and not limited to melee only imho

[nydig]

Things have changed so much since i last played but the dmg return elixir was actually good in 1v1 with melee and tanks because dng was not reduced by toughness armor or resists and could open hit it detaunt let them knock you down and take off a decent amount of hp before even fighting back.

Dont know if you can even do that any more but on live it did almost 2k dmg over the 7 seconds it was up.... in grp play was useless though due to internal cd on the dmg return lol.