The Anti-Destro Patch and its Discontents

[havartii]

Dude just take a break if you don't agree with the changes, no need getting yourself all worked up over a old video game. (to op of thread)

[Naelar]

Before you call me order prider, I play both sides and don't think that this patch is perfect and was not maybe too heavyhanded to destro. Probably devs will give Borc some good utility instead of waaagh and tone down SM.

Toning down SM doesn't help, because it's fine, that they have CDR.
Nothing you could give BO other that CDR in exchange for something else would fix it. Obviously with the removal of CDR from choppa.
There was, at least it seems to me, only focus on the apparent imbalance - 2vs1 CDR - and no thought on the plethora of consequences it will have, tbh this idea should have died on the drawing board.

Yes. Shocking how few people understand this..

[Spellbound]

Before you call me order prider, I play both sides and don't think that this patch is perfect and was not maybe too heavyhanded to destro. Probably devs will give Borc some good utility instead of waaagh and tone down SM.

Toning down SM doesn't help, because it's fine, that they have CDR.
Nothing you could give BO other that CDR in exchange for something else would fix it. Obviously with the removal of CDR from choppa.
There was, at least it seems to me, only focus on the apparent imbalance - 2vs1 CDR - and no thought on the plethora of consequences it will have, tbh this idea should have died on the drawing board.

If we only had immediate counter proposals from a Destro RC on my initial CDR post. Would’ve been a great time to post Choppa removal CDR to give devs 2-3 month time to implement. Waiting one week before patch when I mentioned I see your point but it would require both rework of BO and Choppa a bit to swap CDR. You yourself could’ve posted something up. Carthage had a BO nerf/change proposal ready but RL I guess got in the way.

BO isn’t getting CDR back without something reduced and Choppa getting some buff if they lose CDR. Marauders were taking over Choppas in city spots with 4-5 Mara per city. Just flat taking it away from Choppa would’ve gutted them more than BO. BO at least is still strong while you would no longer see Choppas. Don’t join RC team if don’t want to contribute.

Sulorie you were on the team and the most you posted was on the last week before patch. One I actually agreed partially with you.

Note to future RC: Don’t wait 3 months. Give actual proposals with delves, design a tactic or ability and not just comments.

[Sulorie]

If we only had immediate counter proposals from a Destro RC on my initial CDR post. Would’ve been a great time to post Choppa removal CDR to give devs 2-3 month time to implement. Waiting one week before patch when I mentioned I see your point but it would require both rework of BO and Choppa a bit to swap CDR. You yourself could’ve posted something up. Carthage had a BO nerf/change proposal ready but RL I guess got in the way.

BO isn’t getting CDR back without something reduced and Choppa getting some buff if they lose CDR. Marauders were taking over Choppas in city spots with 4-5 Mara per city. Just flat taking it away from Choppa would’ve gutted them more than BO. BO at least is still strong while you would no longer see Choppas. Don’t join RC team if don’t want to contribute.

Sulorie you were on the team and the most you posted was on the last week before patch. One I actually agreed partially with you.

Note to future RC: Don’t wait 3 months. Give actual proposals with delves, design a tactic or ability and not just comments.

Tbh, I reported those implications at mid of April, when the plans to remove BO CDR were finally presented from official side as draft note. This is a about a month time.
I am not that creative in developing new skills or mechanics but what I can is analyzing the impact of a change. And I do think we need someone to do this, like a devil's advocate, as apparently nobody else did this - and there were a lot people involved in this patch.

Your state of the game post, and I just had to dig for it, was a mix up of several classes and class related suggestions and that part about BO slipped past me. I blame me for this but as having mentioned above, there were many people, who should have seen this implication, as we solved one issue and created a lot more. Would have been maybe better if each class or mirror had gotten their own thread.

[Celyt]

Orontes, honestly sounds like you didn't play at the top level of live cause dps healers were ****, all healers that weren't a DoK, WP or Zealot were basically useless. And I don't see any anti destro in the patch and I am not one to pick sides. To be honest there should be more changes for order classes to be on par with destro classes cause there are a lot of benefits destro get that order do not.

[Synora]

I think it's funny how Destro has had a morale pump advantage and a CDR advantage all these years, but then when it's normalized across both factions it's "anti-destro". Lol, get outta here! Destro pushed 5* AD just fine last night (facerolled Reikwald and Stonewatch) and city score was 3-3. If the intent of the patch was really ANTI-DESTRO PATCH AND ITS DISCONTENTS, devs completely missed the mark.

[starness88]

I think it's funny how Destro has had a morale pump advantage and a CDR advantage all these years, but then when it's normalized across both factions it's "anti-destro". Lol, get outta here! Destro pushed 5* AD just fine last night (facerolled Reikwald and Stonewatch) and city score was 3-3. If the intent of the patch was really ANTI-DESTRO PATCH AND ITS DISCONTENTS, devs completely missed the mark.

Pushing city is about number not about the balance of the game. I'm still waiting for the destro rampage equivalence.

[Spellbound]

I think it's funny how Destro has had a morale pump advantage and a CDR advantage all these years, but then when it's normalized across both factions it's "anti-destro". Lol, get outta here! Destro pushed 5* AD just fine last night (facerolled Reikwald and Stonewatch) and city score was 3-3. If the intent of the patch was really ANTI-DESTRO PATCH AND ITS DISCONTENTS, devs completely missed the mark.

Pushing city is about number not about the balance of the game. I'm still waiting for the destro rampage equivalence.

Waiting for rampage?

Waiting for no immunity knockbacks like Winds of Insanity and Outta My Way!
Waiting on Choppa Pull
Waiting on Marauder AoE Knockdown
Waiting on Marauder pull without a pet
Waiting on Windblock
Waiting on Morale self pump for two order tanks
Waiting on auto detaunt tactic and speed
Waiting on damage from order tanks to match destro.

... can add a quiet bit more to the list but ya it’s all a joke. Point is every side is different. Destro has gotten more mirrors off order than order has gotten off destro. SH shouldn’t even have a pounce.

Want want want when the realm is already strong and good synergy between classes to do well even after changes.

[derekmlv]

I think it's funny how Destro has had a morale pump advantage and a CDR advantage all these years, but then when it's normalized across both factions it's "anti-destro". Lol, get outta here! Destro pushed 5* AD just fine last night (facerolled Reikwald and Stonewatch) and city score was 3-3. If the intent of the patch was really ANTI-DESTRO PATCH AND ITS DISCONTENTS, devs completely missed the mark.

Pushing city is about number not about the balance of the game. I'm still waiting for the destro rampage equivalence.

Waiting for rampage?

Waiting for no immunity knockbacks like Winds of Insanity and Outta My Way!
Waiting on Choppa Pull
Waiting on Marauder AoE Knockdown
Waiting on Marauder pull without a pet
Waiting on Windblock
Waiting on Morale self pump for two order tanks
Waiting on auto detaunt tactic and speed
Waiting on damage from order tanks to match destro.

... can add a quiet bit more to the list but ya it’s all a joke. Point is every side is different. Destro has gotten more mirrors off order than order has gotten off destro. SH shouldn’t even have a pounce.

Want want want when the realm is already strong and good synergy between classes to do well even after changes.

I would be ok if you gave order all of that if we get rampage

[Dabbart]

Waiting for Elf/Dwarf racial tactics.
Waiting for for KoTBS group crit bonus'
Waiting for Focused Mending
Waiting for Staggering Impact(stacks with Pierce Defenses)
Waiting for multiple aoe interrupts
Waiting for Pet to perform Pull rather than rely on LoS/distance with obvious interruptable channel
Waiting for m1 pounce/snare
Waiting for Solar Flare
Waiting for BW/Sorc Bomb lvl normalization

And can go on a bit more... There isn't supposed to be perfect mirroring. The sides are balanced as a whole, not individually. That's why not all Pet class mirrors have a pet. Just cause one side has something doesn't mean it needs to be mirrored.

And ffs, can we stop asking for gobbo racial tactics to be mirrored? No racial tactics are mirrored. Some are better than others, maybe ask for your race's shitty tactic to be altered?

To be honest, if I was an order shill I would bitch about DoK m2 and WoI. Winds is pretty broken, and nearly everyone agrees RPs need something at 13pt. The rest is easily out weighed by a counter list.

Why can't we just balance things, instead of copy/paste from other classes?

Edit: Cause I forgot my actual point, normalizing things from one side or lessening one of their inherent advantages in the name of "because the other side doesn't have the same" isn't balance. It's wanting one side to be more powerful than it currently is. My personal litmus test, what about your realm/classes needs to be toned done/mirrored? It's easy to think you can see where you need to add or empower. But what about your class/realm is OP? If you can think that way, then it's less of "I want more shinies", and tends to be more honest. The difficult part, is knowing enough classes that you can think of all of them as "your class". So when you ask for a nerf or alteration there is no real bias. You just want the game to play better.

/rant