Lots of Numbers: Twilight's Tide Event Scenarios

[Aluviya]

Is it really what devs have in mind with their design?

Yes. The feedback has been constant, and overwhelming about this for a long time. Their actions have demonstrated they WANT farm fests. Guards were removed that insta-kill camp farming to allow it to happen being the most glaringly obvious choice. I can't think of a single design change to scenarios that has been in favor of making them more accessible and focused on the actual objective.

My wild idea is to remove all RR and quest requirements from kills in SCs. Make them PURELY objective based, and see what happens.

Sorry to say it directly, but that will just lead to the situation where people will abandon "normal" setups in favor of absurdly defensive ones, just to focus on objectives. For example, they might go with 3 tanks and 3 healers and just sit on the objective that needs to be capped. From my point of view, that is not what a scenario is about.

[tazdingo]

Which is why I believe Scenarios should be 6 vs 6 strictly having a hidden MMR System behind it.

this would kill the game within a week

- all casuals leave because grinding 16 - 40 in 6v6 scens would be absolutely miserable. imagine maps like stonetroll and gorge. if you had 6 unorganized players 99% of their time would be spent not fighting
- once the casuals leave the organized players will start to quit when they're forced to actually fight other premades

literally just remove the spawn timeout, remove all barriers, add guards back and add discordant to the event. that's it, problem solved

"but casuals should join a guild and get organized on disco-"

it's been 10 years if they were going to do it they would've done it by now

[Aluviya]

Which is why I believe Scenarios should be 6 vs 6 strictly having a hidden MMR System behind it.

this would kill the game within a week

- all casuals leave because grinding 16 - 40 in 6v6 scens would be absolutely miserable. imagine maps like stonetroll and gorge. if you had 6 unorganized players 99% of their time would be spent not fighting
- once the casuals leave the organized players will start to quit when they're forced to actually fight other premades

literally just remove the spawn timeout, remove all barriers, add guards back and add discordant to the event. that's it, problem solved

"but casuals should join a guild and get organized on disco-"

it's been 10 years if they were going to do it they would've done it by now

Why would that would kill the game within a week, if I may respectfully ask, if people actually face opponents at their same MMR level? With Ranked not being very accepted by the community, the MMR system could never fully develop due to the lack of available data.

[lumpi33]

Can we have a statistic about % of stomps in discordant?

This is for discordant from the last two weeks:
T1:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

SCs played: 1314
SCs won by Order: 715
SCs won by Destro: 599
SCs that were kind of even: 592 or 45.05% of 1314
SCs with one side dominating the other: 722 or 54.95% of 1314
	SCs with Order dominating Destro: 397 or 30.21% of 1314
	SCs with Destro dominating Order: 325 or 24.73% of 1314

from > 0s to =< 60s duration: 0
from > 60s to =< 120s duration: 1
from > 120s to =< 180s duration: 23
from > 180s to =< 240s duration: 60
from > 240s to =< 300s duration: 205
from > 300s to =< 360s duration: 228
from > 360s to =< 420s duration: 162
from > 420s to =< 480s duration: 162
from > 480s to =< 540s duration: 148
from > 540s to =< 600s duration: 111
from > 600s to =< 660s duration: 96
from > 660s to =< 720s duration: 56
from > 720s to =< 780s duration: 29
from > 780s to =< 840s duration: 12
from > 840s to =< 900s duration: 9
from > 900s to =< 960s duration: 12
from > 960s to =< 1020s duration: 0
from > 1020s to =< 1080s duration: 0
from > 1080s to =< 1140s duration: 0
from > 1140s to =< 1200s duration: 0

T3:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

SCs played: 1670
SCs won by Order: 873
SCs won by Destro: 797
SCs that were kind of even: 730 or 43.71% of 1670
SCs with one side dominating the other: 940 or 56.29% of 1670
	SCs with Order dominating Destro: 506 or 30.30% of 1670
	SCs with Destro dominating Order: 434 or 25.99% of 1670

from > 0s to =< 60s duration: 0
from > 60s to =< 120s duration: 0
from > 120s to =< 180s duration: 20
from > 180s to =< 240s duration: 89
from > 240s to =< 300s duration: 320
from > 300s to =< 360s duration: 255
from > 360s to =< 420s duration: 218
from > 420s to =< 480s duration: 196
from > 480s to =< 540s duration: 199
from > 540s to =< 600s duration: 148
from > 600s to =< 660s duration: 95
from > 660s to =< 720s duration: 66
from > 720s to =< 780s duration: 31
from > 780s to =< 840s duration: 17
from > 840s to =< 900s duration: 3
from > 900s to =< 960s duration: 13
from > 960s to =< 1020s duration: 0
from > 1020s to =< 1080s duration: 0
from > 1080s to =< 1140s duration: 0
from > 1140s to =< 1200s duration: 0

KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Brendolf [] rr31.41 54 72.22%
IRON_BREAKER Trom [Bitterstone Thunderers] rr33.24 45 71.11%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Supwidit [] rr29.63 41 70.73%
MAGUS Tehnomork [Nugos] rr36.41 34 79.41%
ARCHMAGE Evilgrinnn [Oath] rr30.15 33 75.76%
BLACK_GUARD Yisati [] rr29.78 32 71.88%
BLACK_ORC Abarca [The Goblin Workers Union] rr29.07 30 73.33%
RUNE_PRIEST Louhkaavapilly [] rr38.93 28 82.14%
SHAMAN Kutu [Da Freebootaz] rr37.21 28 71.43%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Boglordina [] rr38.74 27 74.07%
IRON_BREAKER Kurgaz [Dammaz Kron] rr29.59 27 70.37%
WHITE_LION Monos [The Forces of Order] rr34.77 26 73.08%
ZEALOT Nekrophorus [The Forces of Destruction] rr44.92 26 76.92%
WHITE_LION Langoere669801E8 [] rr41.54 26 76.92%
WHITE_LION Beyblade [] rr27.52 25 72%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Greenleaf [] rr27.67 24 83.33%
RUNE_PRIEST Vimkershrinker [XREAL] rr42.88 24 87.5%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Tylurrr [Reign Of Fire] rr31.42 24 75%
CHOSEN Subjugator [The Forces of Destruction] rr26.54 24 70.83%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Frajk [The Forces of Order] rr25.35 23 78.26%
SHAMAN Goldaaa [The Forces of Destruction] rr38.7 23 73.91%
WITCH_HUNTER Nottry [] rr28.55 22 81.82%
ENGINEER Goldheartha [] rr26.5 22 77.27%
RUNE_PRIEST Rhunki [Bitterstone Thunderers] rr37.14 22 81.82%
BLACK_GUARD Corey [The Unstable Equation] rr37.24 21 85.71%
BLACK_ORC Orcho [] rr37.9 21 76.19%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Pfeilhagel [The Forces of Order] rr40.9 21 71.43%
ZEALOT Jynko [Entropy and Chaos] rr34.29 21 76.19%

T4:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

SCs played: 2716
SCs won by Order: 1610
SCs won by Destro: 1106
SCs that were kind of even: 967 or 35.60% of 2716
SCs with one side dominating the other: 1749 or 64.40% of 2716
	SCs with Order dominating Destro: 1035 or 38.11% of 2716
	SCs with Destro dominating Order: 714 or 26.29% of 2716

from > 0s to =< 60s duration: 0
from > 60s to =< 120s duration: 1
from > 120s to =< 180s duration: 36
from > 180s to =< 240s duration: 225
from > 240s to =< 300s duration: 813
from > 300s to =< 360s duration: 454
from > 360s to =< 420s duration: 294
from > 420s to =< 480s duration: 231
from > 480s to =< 540s duration: 228
from > 540s to =< 600s duration: 154
from > 600s to =< 660s duration: 119
from > 660s to =< 720s duration: 69
from > 720s to =< 780s duration: 40
from > 780s to =< 840s duration: 26
from > 840s to =< 900s duration: 12
from > 900s to =< 960s duration: 14
from > 960s to =< 1020s duration: 0
from > 1020s to =< 1080s duration: 0
from > 1080s to =< 1140s duration: 0
from > 1140s to =< 1200s duration: 0

SHADOW_WARRIOR Ravandin [Oath] rr83 259 72.59%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Zwit [NUGOS Lite] rr78.34 250 75.2%
WHITE_LION Elaira [] rr78.12 234 73.93%
WITCH_HUNTER Hon [Pig Stompers] rr89.64 148 77.03%
WHITE_LION Zefslio [Sanctus Malleus] rr75.41 144 72.92%
ARCHMAGE Angelfuram [] rr98 118 72.03%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Awbzz [Pax Mortis II] rr84.32 115 74.78%
WHITE_LION Luma [NUGOS Lite] rr80.84 112 83.93%
SWORD_MASTER Herculess [] rr82 82 73.17%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Stelio [Retribution] rr70.93 81 77.78%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Caomaghna [Evildoors Uncommons] rr70.94 78 78.21%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Foxington [Tuff Bois] rr87 78 71.79%
SWORD_MASTER Honoriel [Pig Stompers] rr62.7 67 73.13%
WHITE_LION Utharios [KUNG FU] rr75.71 59 83.05%
SWORD_MASTER Zwita [Retribution] rr83 49 71.43%
WHITE_LION Woistmeine [The Forces of Order] rr48.02 48 75%
ARCHMAGE Saducian [Retribution] rr75.02 48 81.25%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Derdie [Bene Tleilax] rr83 47 70.21%
ARCHMAGE Walmart [Overkill] rr69.04 46 71.74%
SLAYER Stompinator [Pig Stompers] rr53.11 44 70.45%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Pryar [How I Met Your Mother] rr83.66 41 78.05%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Thiberica [Cross] rr83 41 82.93%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Diwa [OnlyFans] rr81.21 38 73.68%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Plateforme [] rr89 37 78.38%
RUNE_PRIEST Branflakes [Vae Victis Granarc] rr76.65 37 78.38%
SLAYER Belzyn [phRAZEing] rr78 37 70.27%
RUNE_PRIEST Gemmio [Overkill] rr84.81 36 72.22%
ARCHMAGE Giladar [The Eternal Host] rr82.11 35 91.43%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Elainebenes [Pig Stompers] rr87 35 91.43%
WHITE_LION Vika [I laugh me broken] rr71.26 35 71.43%
WITCH_HUNTER Wolfang [] rr78.28 32 71.88%
SWORD_MASTER Salrana [Luna Wolves] rr83 31 80.65%
SLAYER Quoi [CQFD ll] rr82 31 70.97%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Erii [Loyal Retainers] rr81.52 31 80.65%
BRIGHT_WIZARD Logicz [KUNG FU] rr81.43 30 73.33%
ENGINEER Woton [NWO] rr83 28 71.43%
ARCHMAGE Sulorie [How I Met Your Mother] rr83.19 27 81.48%
IRON_BREAKER Thoruk [Nostromo] rr87 27 77.78%
MARAUDER Deedee [] rr86.41 27 70.37%
WITCH_HUNTER Piffpaff [Gimle] rr80.89 27 74.07%
SLAYER Goobergroper [meat] rr81 27 88.89%
IRON_BREAKER Ironhans [] rr84 27 77.78%
BRIGHT_WIZARD Ezmee [Reign Of Fire] rr70.04 27 74.07%
BRIGHT_WIZARD Singlemomalert [Didnt Ask] rr83.56 27 74.07%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Sarth [Cavalieri X Caso] rr72.08 26 76.92%
SWORD_MASTER Lapiaa [] rr82 24 70.83%
SWORD_MASTER Cenwill [Shadows of Divinity] rr79.42 24 75%
IRON_BREAKER Trom [Bitterstone Thunderers] rr45.57 23 73.91%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Aniomed [Cross] rr83 23 73.91%
IRON_BREAKER Gilgam [] rr83.68 22 72.73%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Hardmann [Sol  Invictus] rr80.32 22 77.27%
RUNE_PRIEST Acal [Oath] rr81.5 22 81.82%
RUNE_PRIEST Vinnir [Deadly Riot] rr61.14 21 71.43%
SHADOW_WARRIOR Focal [Retribution] rr69.76 21 80.95%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Ettore [Unclers] rr84 21 76.19%
WARRIOR_PRIEST Qammi [Bene Tleilax] rr64.9 21 76.19%
RUNE_PRIEST Trjx [phRAZEing] rr67.05 21 71.43%
KNIGHT_OF_THE_BLAZING_SUN Godrick [] rr50.67 21 76.19%

I think the key for more balanced and more fun SCs is high randomness, so that you face different people and/or comps in every round and some kind of auto group building because playing without tanks or healers is not fun either. Basically what they have done for solo ranked but without mixing the realms and with less strict comps. Each group of 6 should just have at least 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps. I think that would be fine.

To have high randomness they should not split between discordant and normal because it splits the player base and they shouldn't allow group queuing to have maximum randomness. With more even rounds more people would start playing scenarios again and the randomness with more players would increase.

I think that's the only way to fix it. No groups, all in the same queue and some kind of automated comp building. Done.

PS: to avoid abusing of the queue they should always start two scenarios at once when there are enough people in the queue and put people randomly in either one or the other. That would prevent the FIFO abusing and queuing at the same time by certain people.

[ShadowWar]

Sorry to say it directly, but that will just lead to the situation where people will abandon "normal" setups in favor of absurdly defensive ones, just to focus on objectives. For example, they might go with 3 tanks and 3 healers and just sit on the objective that needs to be capped. From my point of view, that is not what a scenario is about.

How would that be worse than current state?

[Phantasm]

Sorry to say it directly, but that will just lead to the situation where people will abandon "normal" setups in favor of absurdly defensive ones, just to focus on objectives. For example, they might go with 3 tanks and 3 healers and just sit on the objective that needs to be capped. From my point of view, that is not what a scenario is about.

How would that be worse than current state?

I didnt say that. Wrong quote mate.

[Aluviya]

Sorry to say it directly, but that will just lead to the situation where people will abandon "normal" setups in favor of absurdly defensive ones, just to focus on objectives. For example, they might go with 3 tanks and 3 healers and just sit on the objective that needs to be capped. From my point of view, that is not what a scenario is about.

How would that be worse than current state?

Was my quote, doesn't matter. The current issues we have with SC's are from my PoV not evolving around this issue though.

[ShadowWar]

I didnt say that. Wrong quote mate.

Apologies, editing on mobile can be a PITA sometimes.

Was my quote, doesn't matter. The current issues we have with SC's are from my PoV not evolving around this issue though.

You mean evolving around the huge gap in out comes?

Maybe I'm being to idealistic, but I would love hear from a member of the design team on the intent. We have a lot of people chiming in and giving feedback on hard numbers being provided that seems to indicate a clear issue. However, it doesn't seem as if any notice and/or care is being given to the state of the system. It leads me to assume either neglect or working as intended, and honestly, I'm not sure which is worse.

[Ywhi]

My suggestion would be:
- either reduce the allowed group size for scenarios to 3 (that's basically half of a 2/2/2 comp) to have more mixing of them or
- get rid of groups in scenarios and discordant overall. No more queuing as group. Then add automated comp building like you did for ranked scenarios. Done.

Cheers.

Nice troll, you had me in the first half.

[gersy]

great post and data collection ty for your work

my thoughts on how to "fix" the scenario issue. these are not ordered in importance, just numbered to list.


1. add specific live event SC queue to discordant (i.e. discordant serpent's passage/phoenix gate)
2. fix discordant matchmaking so that each party has at least 1 tank and 1 healer
3. add a ranked style UI where you can see exactly what is queueing for discordant SCs and know what role to log on for a faster queue or fairer matches
4. add new mechanic which grants bonuses for playing the least queued for roles in discordant if there are too few in the pool, small renown or crest bump in exchange for queueing up as a role that is needed in that moment (i.e. there are 8 tanks, 8 dps and 0 healers queued up and under fix #2's specifications a match would not fire, so queueing as a healer to fire a match grants a small bonus)
5. add barriers to all SCs but remove idle hands beyond the first pvp death. ensure that every SC has at least 1 fight at the start but don't force people to go out and feed for no reason, this is really silly and makes people not want to play.
6. leave normal SCs in their current iteration alone in their functionality after making all these changes.