[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[TenTonHammer]

5% block/parry strikethrough is enough.

But why, and why only 5%?

You get a lot of surviveablity with DW and parry renown as well as the AA benifits that come with dw, compared to that 5% is lack luster 2h deserves to have a fair and equal upside

why not make it a level playing field and let both have 10% parry

[TenTonHammer]

*shrug*

i just felt that wps if became survivable with parry based defense then that could be a pretty good plus point to sell dps wps to groups in the dps slots over slayers or WL's; furthermore, i felt that it could also encourage groups to run 2h tanks more instead of the standard SnB tanks

[Tklees]

I like the idea of removing the aoe detaunt from doks and WPs with book/chalice. So the big problem I keep seeing mentioned is defended attacks or mitigated attacks reducing healing output. Is there anyway for the healing compent of each ability in melee to be guaranteed? Like casting a heal while the damage part of it goes through basic mitigation. An example would be RA healing for 3 ticks of x, while doing damage y over 3 ticks. I think this would make the numbers consistent and the supplement damage contained. While still keeping the benefit of debuff free healing.

[Sigimund]

Surely the objective is that heavy Grace with lifetap focused tactics should be primarily a healer/secondarily a DPS and justify a healer slot? Heavy Wrath with pure DPS tactics should be the DPS with off-heals.

[sweetest]

Surely the objective is that heavy Grace with lifetap focused tactics should be primarily a healer/secondarily a DPS and justify a healer slot? Heavy Wrath with pure DPS tactics should be the DPS with off-heals.

in order to correctly change grace to a primary healer slot there would need to be a complete rework of the grace tree and the way wps work. i don't want that to happen at all.

2h wps should never take the slot of a main healer. they take the slot of a dps and they support with buffs and backup heals.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

while i think it's awesome you guys are all in support of buffing my favorite and most played class, i can't help but feel a little worried that something bad could come of this.

I feel like with some of the proprosed changes in here you could easily make Grace WPs overpowered and FoTM.

one thing i think you guys should realize is is that a grace WP is not going to be a main healer, ever. they are a support healer.

the spot in the group for a grace wp is going to be a DPS slot. Az said earlier this thread is about buffing their support and not their dps. I disagree with this, the role that we're meant to fill is a beefy melee dps that can support the group with buffs and back up-healing, like a 2h tank supports the group with buffs and cc's and snares and such. don't forget the things that we already bring that other dps dont, like cleanse. healing auras, and being nigh unkillable 1v1.

I don't think grace WPs need MAJOR changes to be viable. I think they need very small changes implemented slowly and carefully. we can start with Sigmar's Shield.

I would like our damage to be good , not as good as a glass cannon WL or slayer, but as it stands right now our dmg is not where it needs to be to be a viable melee slot compared to one of the other m dps.

One way I could think to help our damage out maybe is to make Sigmar's Fist use the same damage model as Sigmar's Vision, Sigmars fist is our main attack that is used the most to make sure our target is debuffed, we are buffed and our friends are buffed, so why is it our weakest strike in the grace tree?

Surely the objective is that heavy Grace with lifetap focused tactics should be primarily a healer/secondarily a DPS and justify a healer slot? Heavy Wrath with pure DPS tactics should be the DPS with off-heals.

in order to correctly change grace to a primary healer slot there would need to be a complete rework of the grace tree and the way wps work. i don't want that to happen at all.

2h wps should never take the slot of a main healer. they take the slot of a dps and they support with buffs and backup heals.

WPs will never fill a DD slot, because they clearly lack the tools for it (as well as any "offtank" too btw) and they hopefully never will be. If anything at all, they can fill a DD slot against some pug enemies.
They are a healer (main role) + melee support (second role) hybrid class.

Imo the major part of the playerbase is blinded by the bad design decisions mythic made, after they realised that it could be hard to balance the WP/dok to fulfil their intended role.

It is indeed my opinion that the DPS potential of the class(es) should be a basic melee support and the melee healing potential should be bolstered so that they can fulfil the role of a full healer.

[Azarael]

...

Your ideal and mine are not contradictory. We theoretically have 3 specs here:

Wrath/Grace: DPS with off heals
Grace/Salvation: melee healer
Salvation/Grace: backline healer

My viewpoint is influenced by disbelief that any group will ever desire to run DPS DoK or DPS WP in a DPS slot. Luth has mentioned why above - they don't have enough tools for that and the vast majority of their skills are designed around healing, support and side DPS. I think trying to make DPS WP / DPS DoK truly viable is a much harder ask than fixing them to play as they were originally designed by solving the aforementioned issues (directly comparable to, say, trying to justify Swordmaster or Black Orc in a melee DPS slot) and I find it difficult to believe that 2h WP will so easily be overpowered when it is so bad at the moment that only diehards and experimenters will even bother taking a 2h. Realistically, to solve DPS WP's issues and bolster DPS DoK as well, the ability to edit / add abilities on the client will be necessary. Before that, there are no solutions.

I'd also like to reinforce that the issue of CC and kiting, which currently smashes the melee healing spec, is something I wish to solve, and I've already addressed it in the multiple attribute dependence section.

The other thing is that even if you manage to put out 70% of the DPS of a pure DPS and 70% of the healing of a pure healer, you've still got problems if the game is about burst damage, because you can't do both at once. This is the hybrid problem and it's something else that was never accounted for in this game.

I like the idea of removing the aoe detaunt from doks and WPs with book/chalice. So the big problem I keep seeing mentioned is defended attacks or mitigated attacks reducing healing output. Is there anyway for the healing compent of each ability in melee to be guaranteed? Like casting a heal while the damage part of it goes through basic mitigation. An example would be RA healing for 3 ticks of x, while doing damage y over 3 ticks. I think this would make the numbers consistent and the supplement damage contained. While still keeping the benefit of debuff free healing.

Yes, it can be guaranteed. In the case of Divine Assault, however, this would require a rework, because DA's healing is entirely based on damage dealt.

[zarg64]

it is a great job and I am very curious to see the result
wp and dok really will heal the cac one day?

good luck

[ThePollie]

I'd also like to reinforce that the issue of CC and kiting, which currently smashes the melee healing spec, is something I wish to solve, and I've already addressed it in the multiple attribute dependence section.

Aside from otherwise stated problems, this is another massive hurdle we have. It is vastly too easy to knock us back and snare us, with absolutely no counter play. No amount of positioning, practice, mastery or tactic combination allows us to deal with this. Currently, if it happens - and it almost certainly will - you're done. Whatever happens will happen and you're out of the game for bit, assuming you survive the process at all.

It will be nicer once we have access to Vow of Silence, then we can actually make a CC move of our own. Until then, we're effectively the only class on the field that has nothing to sway the enemy, except for a short, two GCD slow that requires a Cursed target.

Yes, it can be guaranteed. In the case of Divine Assault, however, this would require a rework, because DA's healing is entirely based on damage dealt.

I've heard suggestions of allowing the attack to be undefendable, but this scares me a little. Against a target without mitigation, something you'll not see for obvious reasons, Divine Assault can heal upwards to as much as 12,000 health, in three seconds. Granted, even one parry or block does more than merely chip away at this heal, and it's not uncommon to have a target do even more than that, on top of Spirit resistance and Toughness, perhaps even Guard to boot.

Unlike some classes, we have no means to debuff our target's resistance or armour. We have to rely entirely on other classes for that, in which requires communication and timing. Something you'll never see in a pug group. For now, all you can really do is either get a pre-made with guildies or friends - since nobody else is likely to take a melee priest - or take a swing at someone and hope you don't have 80% of your attack shut down.

And don't get me started on how much of an interrupt bait that attack is.

[Azarael]

If you're getting 12k off a Divine Assault, you're hitting for 857 per attack on every attack. That's outlandish damage, and if you manage to find a target that is squishy, totally debuffed and not guarded then you're playing a bad team.