[Warrior Priest] - Wrath Mastery Tree

[peterthepan3]

The problem isn't with Wrath's self-sufficiency, though (when talking about endgame). At R40 RR4X+ you can spec both trees (and decide whether you want to specialise in one over the other) and can incorporate Grace's skills anyway.
The problem with Wrath is the damage itself/debuffs are rubbish.

[Dreadspectre]

I've always thought it would be cool if instead of a 25% heal debuff they got something that converted a % of the healing received into damage instead.

I don't want to guess at a % per say but that would be pretty handy and I don't think anyone else has an ability like that do they?(It's been so long since I've played WAR, trying to get back into it).

[Dreadspectre]

Would swapping Wrath skills to dealing Spirit damage instead of Physical damage go a long way to helping them have more relevance in the DPS department?

[ThePollie]

Would swapping Wrath skills to dealing Spirit damage instead of Physical damage go a long way to helping them have more relevance in the DPS department?

It would help, at least. Wrath needs a lot more damage, in my opinion. It just doesn't have the mobility and utility to hit for this little damage, even after considering its access to self-heals.

[th3gatekeeper]

Would swapping Wrath skills to dealing Spirit damage instead of Physical damage go a long way to helping them have more relevance in the DPS department?

It would help, at least. Wrath needs a lot more damage, in my opinion. It just doesn't have the mobility and utility to hit for this little damage, even after considering its access to self-heals.

So I guess you want to increase severity of Divine Fury and Fanaticism?

So what about bumping Divine Fury to 35% increase damage with a 30% reduction to healing.

Would be a boost to damage, at a cost of healing. And possibly to make Bludgeon an "undefendable" attack.

It would also be a huge benefit to WP if detaunt stacked with Guard.....

[ThePollie]

So I guess you want to increase severity of Divine Fury and Fanaticism?

So what about bumping Divine Fury to 35% increase damage with a 30% reduction to healing.

Would be a boost to damage, at a cost of healing. And possibly to make Bludgeon an "undefendable" attack.

It would also be a huge benefit to WP if detaunt stacked with Guard.....

No. I would rather see the skills brought to a proper baseline so that Divine Fury isn't absolutely mandatory. Divine Fury is fine as a DPS tactic, every other DPS class gets a few. The problem is that our skills are crap and can't meet the baseline without it. It doesn't benefit us like other DPSs with their tactics.

And Bludgeon doesn't need to be undefendable, it just needs to actually deal damage. A debuff would be nice, something like -100 armour per strike, stacks 3 times and lasts about 6 seconds. Although a Spirit debuff would probably be better, Wrath just has too many Spirit-damaging abilities to make much use of armour penetration.

[freshour]

I spec'd wrath for a few hours last night and this morning and have a few suggestions that could make it pretty viable. As far as healing goes, yeah we know that is bad. But self-sustain is already pretty good. I have no idea if AOE detaunt is working or not as sometimes its very apparent to be working while others... well yeah... no way. I notice a lot of trade-offs in DoK's and WPs. Like we have to feat toughness debuff/buff they get it as an encounter. They have to slot HD tactic, while we have a slight HD as an encounter. Sure not an even trade, but some of the other trades are scaled as the first so it is a back and forth.

The biggest trick up the MDPS DoK is their version of smite combined with a 50% incoming heal debuff as you all know. Our smite builds us RF, woohoo! I think the general idea was to use that + guilty soul but guilty soul is really only good when you hit a ton of low level mobs as you power up a new character.

Few tweaks ...

Prayer of Righteousness - 350 damage w/out tactic. Tactic increses chance to proc 35% and if that isn't enough causes divine assault to be unblockable. 350 is a solid increase, but its proc rate is meh. This would open up the divine fury, fanaticism, hastened divinity if you wished, or to take the feat to increase its proc. Both are good, options aren't a bad thing.

Castigation - Initiative debuff doubled and also a buff to your disrupt or your own initiative for what you debuff them. This would make Grace and Wrath more viable while not really affecting too many Salvs as they tend to stay back. Not to mention the scaling could weighed more heavily on the back end of the wrath tree.

Guilty Soul - As we really don't have much room for this, maybe during T4 but not in its current state. It should deal some more damage and heal for double. This wouldn't be a big massive heal. But it would allow the wrath WP to have some solid sustaining outside of divine assault. It also makes up for the gap in the DoK aura that does DPS and heals that Wrath misses out on. Both would then be good, but different types of good.

Hastened Divinity - arguably one of the largest increases in total DPS (aside from fury being the obvious one), I think this move should give us something as far as armor pen. Maybe causes your move to ignore 20% or more of your opponents armor. It could make up for the fact that DoK's attack faster so naturally they will do more damage with their DPS aura.

Bludgeon - As it currently stands this move really doesn't offer much. Even with zero points in grace, Sigmar's Radiance hits just as hard if not harder. To make this ability usefull it should be unblockable or ignore opponents armor. This would then have the WP choose from healing, buffing, debuffing, and damage. Maybe it just ignores armor while behind the target. Despite NA ping issues, it would give the most some purpose afterall it nearly useless in its current state.

Hammer of Sigmar - Increased base damage by a bit, but increased damage under 50% by 20-30% for starters. It would give the WP that needed finishing power while not creating too much front end damage. So timely attacks would be significantly more important.

Smite - I love this move for all paths. For wrath, I believe this move should either do substantially more damage, or give you an armor debuff or some sorts. If DoK is all about doing damage via aura, maybe Grace can be all about actual damage as their hammer is pretty beefy. Maybe even give it a 1 second stagger that doesn't respect immunity timer. This would give the WP a gap closer. Hell it could even give the WP a 10% speed increase based on # of targets hit as gap closers are one of their big big issues. Now that I think about a speed increase could be pretty nice as you wouldn't be constantly giving them free immunity as if it didn't respect the timer, the Destro tears would be more than you'd ever imagine.

Endless Guilt - While a good idea in its core, it really can't fit on the bar. I'd say add some spirit damage to this. If you add to its control, it would fall into OP and must slot. If you add some unblockable or spirit damage, it could find some use, but would also lead to the "which tactic do I even use?" feel that we sorta already have.

Absence of Faith - this move really just needs removed. 25% is meh, 20 second CD is "holy ****" and I find much more benfit putting this extra point into grace to give SR a little more heal. Potentially this could be our speed boost or gap closer and a 20 second CD for a gap closer seems long, but honestly we just need a bone when it comes to that department and would be more than happy to take anything.

Soulfire - This cast time is eternity. I think this move and Hammer of Sigmar need swapped. It would allow grace some more DPS, and in swapping, I think it should have a larger AOE, and instant cast or maybe .5 seconds. It saves a lot of the "did it cast? no... now? no.... now? no.... now? YES **** i'm dead" situations. This has the potential to add some heal suppressing damage while not extreme could be a nice addition to have some constant damage going. I'd say either increase its damage or swap it to direct damage while only making it a 1 second cast as it would then be able to proc POR.

Intimidating Repent - This move as it currently stands is useless. If AOE detaunt is removed from the hammer then God help Grace/Wrath WP as their bar is full of tactics already. I don't know how much of a reword is possible but I think this feat could allow Guilty Soul/Soulfire the ability to deal direct damage therefore proccing prayer of righteousness. This alone would be a fairly large increase in AOE damage potential while not adding much to outright burst could make the WP fairly good at support DPS and if spec'd into it could fill more of a "sorta slayer" ish style of DPS.

Weight of Guilt - While most WP's really don't hit this unless nothing else to do or maybe in a 2v1 or 3v1 situation as it is cleansed immediately. This is another option for a move to increase our speed if none of the others are taken into consideration. reducing their movement speed by 40% and increasing ours by 40% could be a good way to double tap a tank and sprint to the backline while hitting Soulfires improved cast speed (and direct damage) to also proc Soulfire to give us some sustained healing as we tried to make it to the casters all DPS intend on wacking.

^^^^ - that sounds pretty amazing when I think of it and would definitely give the WP a little utility when it comes to being able to actually hit targets.

As it stands in wrath spec when I tried with a little over 840 str. My highest crit was a little over 1k on a target with little to no armor. Sure if he was guarded or wasn't pure glass cannon I'd say it was solid. But maybe tweaking all tooltip DPS for wrath by 5-10% could be enough of a jump to bring it all in line.

I am by no means saying that all of this needs to happen as it could create a monster and we know melee DoK's don't want that. But even just a few of these would be a very large step in the right direction. Currently our DPS isn't terrible, but with lack of gap closers, nearly zero utility apart from a few buffs to give your other dps if you aren't focused and a decent initiative debuff, we really only have meh damage.

I tried SM (spirit debuff + spirit damage) along with my Wrath and it was pretty solid duo. With a few of these changes it might allow for a more of a Chosen/Melee DoK type of duo for order that it has been missing.

Before the destro rage happens. These are all suggestions, and any form of them could be implemented but these are just the ideas that came to me as I've played Grace or Grace/Wrath and also Wrath/Grace nearly my entire time here. If people want to stop sighing nad moaning everytime they see a Melee WP then some things along these lines would need to take effect but obviously not until we see how T4 pans out. In the mean time I'd love to hear what you guys think and if you have any NON LIVE but RoR WP experience, please share.

Dawm

[ThePollie]

Prayer of Righteousness - 350 damage w/out tactic. Tactic increses chance to proc 35% and if that isn't enough causes divine assault to be unblockable. 350 is a solid increase, but its proc rate is meh. This would open up the divine fury, fanaticism, hastened divinity if you wished, or to take the feat to increase its proc. Both are good, options aren't a bad thing.

I think I'd rather have the base damage of the Prayer increased to 250 base, and have the tactic instead reduce target Spirit resistances by about 100-150 when it procs. Improves your damage, self-sustain with DA, and allows synergy with Swordmasters and White Lions(vaguely).

Castigation - Initiative debuff doubled and also a buff to your disrupt or your own initiative for what you debuff them. This would make Grace and Wrath more viable while not really affecting too many Salvs as they tend to stay back. Not to mention the scaling could weighed more heavily on the back end of the wrath tree.
No, the initiative debuff is fine. In some cases it's a 35-60% increase in crit chance.

Guilty Soul - As we really don't have much room for this, maybe during T4 but not in its current state. It should deal some more damage and heal for double. This wouldn't be a big massive heal. But it would allow the wrath WP to have some solid sustaining outside of divine assault. It also makes up for the gap in the DoK aura that does DPS and heals that Wrath misses out on. Both would then be good, but different types of good.
Guilty Soul, in itself, is fine. It's the lack of tactic space that makes it rather lackluster.

Hastened Divinity - arguably one of the largest increases in total DPS (aside from fury being the obvious one), I think this move should give us something as far as armor pen. Maybe causes your move to ignore 20% or more of your opponents armor. It could make up for the fact that DoK's attack faster so naturally they will do more damage with their DPS aura.
DoKs actually have a tactic exactly like this one. I'm not sure how well buffing ours and not theirs would work, nor do I think it even needs a buff. It's a massive increase to AA damage, which makes up what... 40% of our damage? I think it's fine as it is. Boring, but effective.

Bludgeon - As it currently stands this move really doesn't offer much. Even with zero points in grace, Sigmar's Radiance hits just as hard if not harder. To make this ability usefull it should be unblockable or ignore opponents armor. This would then have the WP choose from healing, buffing, debuffing, and damage. Maybe it just ignores armor while behind the target. Despite NA ping issues, it would give the most some purpose afterall it nearly useless in its current state.
I wouldn't mind a debuff on this. Possibly a stackable 150 armour debuff or so. Something that could have an impact, but wouldn't be immensely powerful. 3 stacks would be fine. It would improve Bludgeon and HoS's damage, while supporting team with debuffs.

Hammer of Sigmar - Increased base damage by a bit, but increased damage under 50% by 20-30% for starters. It would give the WP that needed finishing power while not creating too much front end damage. So timely attacks would be significantly more important.
I agree. HoS hits like a teacher's paddle, it hardly feels like a move designs to finish people off. I've had even squishies below 15% health survive it. I'd rather just see the below 50% damage improved, though. Leave the other untouched, it shouldn't hit for much when the enemy isn't weakened first.

Smite - I love this move for all paths. For wrath, I believe this move should either do substantially more damage, or give you an armor debuff or some sorts. If DoK is all about doing damage via aura, maybe Grace can be all about actual damage as their hammer is pretty beefy. Maybe even give it a 1 second stagger that doesn't respect immunity timer. This would give the WP a gap closer. Hell it could even give the WP a 10% speed increase based on # of targets hit as gap closers are one of their big big issues. Now that I think about a speed increase could be pretty nice as you wouldn't be constantly giving them free immunity as if it didn't respect the timer, the Destro tears would be more than you'd ever imagine.
I'm still not sure if Wrath is meant for AoE damage. Aside from stacking Guilty Soul and Soulfire, and chaining it with Whispering Winds for Smite, your AoE attacks are mostly for procing effects for the sake of regen and some pressure.

Endless Guilt - While a good idea in its core, it really can't fit on the bar. I'd say add some spirit damage to this. If you add to its control, it would fall into OP and must slot. If you add some unblockable or spirit damage, it could find some use, but would also lead to the "which tactic do I even use?" feel that we sorta already have.
I think EG is fine. We have enough means for snares with other party members you could leave it at home.

Absence of Faith - this move really just needs removed. 25% is meh, 20 second CD is "holy ****" and I find much more benfit putting this extra point into grace to give SR a little more heal. Potentially this could be our speed boost or gap closer and a 20 second CD for a gap closer seems long, but honestly we just need a bone when it comes to that department and would be more than happy to take anything.
No. I'd rather see the 25% debuff increased to 50%. It'd give us a solid utility purpose alongside other DPS. Even at 25%, it beats out a speed increase.

Soulfire - This cast time is eternity. I think this move and Hammer of Sigmar need swapped. It would allow grace some more DPS, and in swapping, I think it should have a larger AOE, and instant cast or maybe .5 seconds. It saves a lot of the "did it cast? no... now? no.... now? no.... now? YES **** i'm dead" situations. This has the potential to add some heal suppressing damage while not extreme could be a nice addition to have some constant damage going. I'd say either increase its damage or swap it to direct damage while only making it a 1 second cast as it would then be able to proc POR.
Kill the cast time and this ability would be about perfect. Maybe a slight increase in damage, or perhaps make it undefendable. Nothing else, really.

Intimidating Repent - This move as it currently stands is useless. If AOE detaunt is removed from the hammer then God help Grace/Wrath WP as their bar is full of tactics already. I don't know how much of a reword is possible but I think this feat could allow Guilty Soul/Soulfire the ability to deal direct damage therefore proccing prayer of righteousness. This alone would be a fairly large increase in AOE damage potential while not adding much to outright burst could make the WP fairly good at support DPS and if spec'd into it could fill more of a "sorta slayer" ish style of DPS.
I think something like Greatsword mastery would be nice. 10% extra damage and 5% crit, etc. Something of that sort. Maybe our own version of Brute Force.

Weight of Guilt - While most WP's really don't hit this unless nothing else to do or maybe in a 2v1 or 3v1 situation as it is cleansed immediately. This is another option for a move to increase our speed if none of the others are taken into consideration. reducing their movement speed by 40% and increasing ours by 40% could be a good way to double tap a tank and sprint to the backline while hitting Soulfires improved cast speed (and direct damage) to also proc Soulfire to give us some sustained healing as we tried to make it to the casters all DPS intend on wacking.
I'm not keen on the speed increase, but it does give me another idea for mobility. Instead of boosting out speed, allow WoG to give us immunity to snares and roots during the duration of the snare. We have the self-sustain, all we need is the damage to back it up. We wouldn't even need the speed and mobility, we could better fill the role of a tanky damage-dealer build to hold ground. Leave the back-line charging to White Lions and Witch Hunters.

[freshour]

If you mean 35-60% increase in crit on our current percent then sure. But i'm pretty overall it is a 5-7% increase in crit. If your crit is extremely low then sure it could be a 65% increase of what crit you have. But your wording makes it seem like it is OP as hell when in reality it is just a decent debuff but should used on every target you focus.

My point in buffing hastened is that DoK's attack faster than we do. So if we both slot it, it really just leads to them having more damage since damage aura procs alone make up for most of the damage. So having a slightly different tactic could make up some of the ground in them doing tremendously more damage than us. Again this roots back to where the damage is coming from. Being able to attack faster than us with dual wielding could be evened out a little bit with this tactic. That is what I meant. So yes, it does need tweaked to compensate if no other compensations are met.

But to say we don't need to add to our control b/c other classes have it, then say we need a spirit debuff when other classes have a WAY better spirit debuff is a bit off. Our prayers absolutely BLOW compared to a DoK, so wrather than make them the same, I think our need adjusted. Giving this a spirit resist debuff removes a key role for SM's and seeing how Az mains an SM, I don't think he would be a fan of it either. It really does need a boost, and the tactic could be reworked to add to the chance to proc as well.

I agree with a lot of the other things you said, but gap closers whether you want to admit it or not are a huge problem of ours as is mobility. So a CC immunity could be awesome, but I'm afraid it would be given an insanely long cooldown as that would be the only way destro would let it pass.

My entire point isn't to make WP melee better than DoK. Just a different type of good. Their entire build relies on a ton of fast attacks with high crit to proc their heal debuff. So if WP had more back end damage and mobility it could be a different side of the same coin.

Edit - While I agree with a lot of your changes a lot of them seem to be very self-minded. We don't need another YOLO SOLO DPS class who champs at solo Q's. I'd love to bring some utility AND some damage increases to wrath. Melee DoK is good, but add its heal debuff and it is phenomenal for a group. I hope if Az does makes changes they have the damage being 20-30% too low in some cases, while also its lack of any help to the group in mind. Afterall this isn't a destro class, order is all about utility and benefit to the group.

[freshour]

Sorry for all of the typos. I am not used to typing on this laptop and it won't let me edit for some reason. But I wanted to clarify again as I stated in my first post that I don't intend or even want all of these at once. The only reason I gave such a large list was to shed light on as many things that underperform and maybe give Az a few new ideas to add to his own when he thinks about what he wants to do with Wrath tree in T4.