[Implemented] Group cleansing.

[Bozzax]

If group cleanse gets a nerf then I'd much rather see a range decrease on group cleanse then most other stuff suggested in op (60 feet).

Having that said. With recent buff to engy I do however feel that one of the strongest arguments for nerfing grp clns may have been softened.

[peterthepan3]

If group cleanse gets a nerf then I'd much rather see a range decrease on group cleanse then most other stuff suggested in op (60 feet).

Having that said. With recent buff to engy I do however feel that one of the strongest arguments for nerfing grp clns may have been softened.

Not really... the AoE dots still hit for very little and cause no real problem to competent healers. It's their ST direct damage that has been affected, more than anything.

[Sy1ver]

Spoiler:

I see no point in making changes if you dont have a complete vision of final gamplay. Discussion on isolated changes in this case is pointless because i can bring 10 spots which will be broken after. So IMO the best way is to one step back and define the simple major goal like "I want to make every healer usefull for 6v6" and move from it instead of "what if change X to make Y?".

Will be good if all of this will be based on some list of Big Problems of Warhammer in end-game.

We are discussing gcleanse. If you have any other proposals, post them in the appropriate forum, not here. - Penril.

[Azarael]

This thread isn't for discussion of general procedure, it's for discussion of group cleanse. If you have read the rules of the forum, you will know the intent is to achieve internal and external balance, and that isn't going to be achieved if group cleanse is defended based on something that I've already raised: negative interim states.

It seems you think that you can just preconstruct a list of targeted changes designed to somehow balance the underpowered classes without changing the meta at all. I'm sorry guys, but balance is incremental, and any balance effort changes both gameplay and meta - and we are not going to make any progress if every change gets stopped because "oh it will make x and y worse". I would compare this argument, and fairly, I think, to the idea of not making a move on Rubik's Cube because "oh look one side is all the same color, I just want to look at this side!" Yes, if you make a move you'll break the coloration of that side. And if you don't make a move, the other 5 sides of the cube will never be the right color.

[cevi]

Spoiler:

Restating a debunked point (mastery point and tactic slot was explicitly addressed in the original proposal precisely to stop you from posting this, thank you!) - Azarael

See you stopped reading after this sentence. And I see now that you don't understand the importance of mastery/tactics. Thank you.
Don't ruin the game. Put your effort into more importand things please.

User was temporarily banned from the balance forum for this post - Azarael

[Sy1ver]

I actually don't think that game is broken. The game is somehow balanced in current state, we have a both sides playable melee setups with completele different base. That's why i asking about reason of changes.

I agreed about broken healers balance, but when im reading about group cleanse it seems you are digging wrong way pointing it as a reason when the reason is in long casts in fast game, squishiness compared with DoK\WP tanking and AP problems. But ok.

Let's a bit "What if?":
Remove group cleanse: destro cry "nerf SL" -> SL nerf -> order cry "nerf destro tank\healers moral pump tac" and rerol to 2sw+bw(wl) \ 3sw setups -> nerf of moral pump -> destro cry "nerf sw"... etc

Give group cleanse to all healers: unfortunately can't know how changes was affect am\sham, if they can heal faster as i think - this will help alot. Fast healing healer with group cleanse it's a dok\wp so seems like sort of mirroing. If not count complicated mechanic.

Nothing changes for RP. This one has no tac slots for it and no reason to use it when destro have no dangerous aoe effects. Except squig aoe cooldowns. Same for Zealot who "cleanse no one" as WP in this game.

As a result this option not so destructive comparing with removing group cleanse.

[Azarael]

AM/Shaman are in the process of having those issues dealt with, and this is an ongoing process. If you believe I am unfairly targeting group cleanse, please address my criticisms of it - those being its extreme power for a single tactic slot, ease of use and the game leaning upon it as a crutch to balance the abundance of effects, especially AoE effects.

If group cleanse were to be tweaked (please note tweaked as I have not once suggested that group cleanse be removed, only reworked) then yes, SL should come up for discussion. Similarly, the morale pump tactics and especially the tank ones are broken in this state of the game because of morale differences. Identifying valid issues that would arise is not occupatio, it just means that those issues would need to be dealt with.

I hope that in future posts you will acknowledge that we are decidedly NOT talking about removing group cleanse. At the current time, my opinion leans towards giving AM/Shaman an improved cleanse and slightly bringing down the WP/DoK group cleanse.

Also, if anyone is going to post in what I'll euphemistically call a faecal manner, like the person who was just removed from the forum: please bear in mind that I can see if you play a WP or DoK main.

[dur3al]

If group cleanse were to be tweaked (please note tweaked as I have not once suggested that group cleanse be removed, only reworked) then yes, SL should come up for discussion. Similarly, the morale pump tactics and especially the tank ones are broken in this state of the game because of morale differences. Identifying valid issues that would arise is not occupatio, it just means that those issues would need to be dealt with.

I hope that in future posts you will acknowledge that we are decidedly NOT talking about removing group cleanse. At the current time, my opinion leans towards giving AM/Shaman an improved cleanse and slightly bringing down the WP/DoK group cleanse.

That's good to hear since I also am from the opinion to give ways of group cleanse to other healers that are sub-par in comparison atm. I'm also ok in changing the current DoK/WP group cleanse to something more risky/reward then what it is atm, but I wouldn't just nerf the amount of cleanse in the game for the simple fact that this is again buffing dps (RANGED DPS) mostly - and as I posted in some other thread, this is becoming a REAL issue at the moment, just take an average of range dps in scenarios and in orvr in general and I'm really starting to think changes are towards making them even strong at the moment. I also know this is a separated issue regarding bringing melee dps up with range dps - but as you said it yourself, everything is connected and you can't just single target an issue thinking it won't affect all others.

Similarly I see SL usage of Shatter Limbs currently in pair with group cleanse from DoK/WP in the topic of overall balance too. Same for Kotbs currently.

[Theseus]

If we are discussing to give all healers a group cleanse, couldnt we make it so that wp/dok only can cleanse one third of the cleanseable debuffs, the zealot/Rp a second third, and AM/SH the third batch of debuffs.... so you would need diversity and there would be one exploitable form of debuff once you figured out the setup the enemy runs.... I think I would like that.

[Sigimund]

I can't comment on DoKs but overall I prefer the proposed move to high Grace spec.

Background - I see overcentralisation as the bigger external imbalance while cost/benefit and reduced micromanagement are a bigger threat to internal balance and point to what is fundamentally wrong with the WP design. There absolutely is a legacy of failed/violated melee healer design in these fast AOE abilities. But the problem is not the existence of the abilities, it is their association with a playstyle that takes the rewards without the risk. I would prefer not to eliminate this legacy where it has some potential for melee healers, just curb it where it affects backliners.

Cost/benefit imbalance - This change targets internal imbalance by adding significant "Grace tax" to speccing for AOE cleanse. There is Intimidating Repent but you could introduce further dilemma and increase the pressure on mastery points by moving a tactic very important to backline specs from core to the vacated spot in the Salvation path. Perhaps Exalted Defences. Force difficult decisions because there are none right now.
>Escalation - Cost/benefit could be further adjusted with a simple cooldown increase (eg 10s) to tweak external balance. On its own, proposal 4 is the soft option but it makes for a good tuning variable.

Nerfed skillcap - I believe the move the Grace addresses the lack of complexity by acknowledging the design legacy and associating this tactic with a spec/playstyle that justifies the reduced complexity on support spells (melee WP skill cap was never the problem).

Overcentralisation - Hopefully the sacrifices required will lead to more diversity among WPs. However, it is inevitable that after the dust settles the new cookie cutter will emerge.
>Escalation - If every group is still building around AOE cleanses and every WP is forced to spec it then it is clear that groups will have their AOE cleanse at any cost. At that point you have to choose between deleting it from the game or upgrading the cleanse on other healer classes. Ultimately I believe that spreading the love will have the lowest impact on how people play with the maximum impact on what people play. This is the magic bullet to fix any imbalance between healer cleanses.

Proposal 1 - can't cleanse self or can't cleanse self and group at the same time, therefore introducing a vulnerability

Spoiler:

Cost/benefit imbalance - this change would introduce a significant cost to using this tactic
Nerfed skillcap - not a significant change to the WP's own play, although implications for group structure and strategy
Overcentralising - it's a nerf alright but I do not believe that this will reduce the relative demand for AOE cleansers in group
Conclusion - Despite the potential for interesting counterplays this feels like a harsh nerf without changing business as usual for many players

Proposal 2 - selectively cleanses AOE debuffs and ignores ST debuffs

Spoiler:

This excessively targets AOE effects and completely ignores ST effects.
Seems lopsided and would then require a review of all AOE abilities which would be heavily nerfed by this change and after that a review of ST abilities which are now more powerful against certain healer setups.
Destroy Confidence served no purpose other than punishing a particular career (and a proc meta). This version of Cleansing Power would not be quite as specialised as DC but the principle seems similar to me.
Much as I have argued in the past that AOE cleansing was not the real reason for engi underperformance, the idea of a tactic that will pick my AOE dots out and remove them while leaving everything else alone does not fill me with joy.
Also, there are only so many AOE debuffs. The tactic is nerfed down to a tiny niche while other classes suffer collateral damage that takes time and effort to fix.