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Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#41 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:26 pm

Azarael wrote:
GodlessCrom wrote:Realize the reasons for this may be personal or private, I apologize, but I feel I missed something here. What happened to make you change your mind so drastically on these issues? If you don't wish to share, I understand.
Most people probably won't care, so spoiler below.
Spoiler:
The project lost almost all of its meaning for me in mid-December, because this was the point at which the major components of my drive to work on it were lost.

I derive satisfaction and worth from the improvement of a flawed design, and from the polishing of a rough gem into something approaching a diamond. The design, however, must demonstrate potential to become great. I realized in late November and early December that I would be unable to solve the problems with the core concepts of RvR and vertical gear progression/balance, which made playing the game such anathema to me. At that point, this element of the drive I had died - I could no longer respect the game.

As a result, I'm not willing to put major effort into refining small concepts, like melee healing, which generate a ton of controversy and complaint both inside the team and outside of it, for a game that is in my opinion very deeply flawed. It's not worth the effort and that pushback is certainly something I can't handle any more.

I also, for quite personal reasons, need to feel as though I'm making personal progress from the work that I do, and increase my own perceived worth. It was made clear to me by one of the later posters in a topic from that time that not only would solving the problems of RoR fail to benefit me in this way, as there would be no wider respect for this and it would be irrelevant in the future, but that my own apparent need to serve as some kind of messiah that the game ultimately did not need was causing discontent within the playerbase. I was accomplishing the opposite effect to what I had intended. Not only that, but time spent thinking about game design is time not spent thinking about or writing code, which is the only valuable thing I would take away from here. These realizations deter me further from contributing any modifications.

Those who have observed me likely harbour suspicions that something isn't quite right with me. I used to have very high uptime on the project and a passion that went beyond what might be expected for a project like this. This is because I've been using this project as an escape from some personal issues in reality. I won't go into them, but part of the problem is that I cannot allow myself to fail. This powers my usual stubbornness and relentlessness in attacking a problem, and my passionate defenses of my positions and viewpoints. However, I failed where it counted most - in RvR and on balance - and unlike past failures, I failed in a very permanent way. There is nothing I can do to fix this game.

As you have seen from the changelogs, I make very, very limited contributions now. The loss of this project as an outlet combined with some other RL circumstances have led to me not being able to concentrate on doing even the smallest things for the project, let alone engaging with the community in the manner that I once did. I hold my rank both because I occasionally post to confirm internal workings and mechanics of the emulator, and because I hold the idea that in the future, I may be able to reconcile these issues and contribute to the project again, in the pure role of a developer rather than a designer or player. But given the state of things at the moment, that could be a long time in coming.

I apologise if some find this explanation overdetailed to the point of arrogance, but I guess I feel it's appropriate for me to set things out like this because of the presence I formerly was.
Outside of my own situation, I have recommended to the other members of the team that they drop the melee/casted hybrid healing concept because it is too difficult to make work in a game that does not have state stabilization. I would have struggled to make it work if the game were locked to one state, and even then, it would only have worked in scenarios. I stand by my assertion that it is unworkable in a state-unstable game.

Wish you all the best. For what it's worth, your input in this project has been (and, I hope, shall continue to be!) phenomenal, and I don't begrudge you at all for having taken on such an undertaking. Unfortunately, it is impossible to please everyone, and at times I do feel that you were determined to try and achieve this (as per your need to succeed, I guess) impossible feat.

Take some time away, and come back afresh (if, of course, you want to come back - hopefully you do). :) Just know that your work hasn't gone unnoticed whatsoever.
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GodlessCrom
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Posts: 1297

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#42 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:33 pm

Thank you very much for the response, Az
I appreciate the detail, and I am sorry the project has gone sour for you. I'll echo what others said, and say your influence and ideas were one of the major draws towards this project for me. Hope all goes well.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Dabbart
Posts: 2251

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#43 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:07 am

Azarael wrote: Most people probably won't care, so spoiler below.
Spoiler:
The project lost almost all of its meaning for me in mid-December, because this was the point at which the major components of my drive to work on it were lost.

I derive satisfaction and worth from the improvement of a flawed design, and from the polishing of a rough gem into something approaching a diamond. The design, however, must demonstrate potential to become great. I realized in late November and early December that I would be unable to solve the problems with the core concepts of RvR and vertical gear progression/balance, which made playing the game such anathema to me. At that point, this element of the drive I had died - I could no longer respect the game.

As a result, I'm not willing to put major effort into refining small concepts, like melee healing, which generate a ton of controversy and complaint both inside the team and outside of it, for a game that is in my opinion very deeply flawed. It's not worth the effort and that pushback is certainly something I can't handle any more.

I also, for quite personal reasons, need to feel as though I'm making personal progress from the work that I do, and increase my own perceived worth. It was made clear to me by one of the later posters in a topic from that time that not only would solving the problems of RoR fail to benefit me in this way, as there would be no wider respect for this and it would be irrelevant in the future, but that my own apparent need to serve as some kind of messiah that the game ultimately did not need was causing discontent within the playerbase. I was accomplishing the opposite effect to what I had intended. Not only that, but time spent thinking about game design is time not spent thinking about or writing code, which is the only valuable thing I would take away from here. These realizations deter me further from contributing any modifications.

Those who have observed me likely harbour suspicions that something isn't quite right with me. I used to have very high uptime on the project and a passion that went beyond what might be expected for a project like this. This is because I've been using this project as an escape from some personal issues in reality. I won't go into them, but part of the problem is that I cannot allow myself to fail. This powers my usual stubbornness and relentlessness in attacking a problem, and my passionate defenses of my positions and viewpoints. However, I failed where it counted most - in RvR and on balance - and unlike past failures, I failed in a very permanent way. There is nothing I can do to fix this game.

As you have seen from the changelogs, I make very, very limited contributions now. The loss of this project as an outlet combined with some other RL circumstances have led to me not being able to concentrate on doing even the smallest things for the project, let alone engaging with the community in the manner that I once did. I hold my rank both because I occasionally post to confirm internal workings and mechanics of the emulator, and because I hold the idea that in the future, I may be able to reconcile these issues and contribute to the project again, in the pure role of a developer rather than a designer or player. But given the state of things at the moment, that could be a long time in coming.

I apologise if some find this explanation overdetailed to the point of arrogance, but I guess I feel it's appropriate for me to set things out like this because of the presence I formerly was.
Outside of my own situation, I have recommended to the other members of the team that they drop the melee/casted hybrid healing concept because it is too difficult to make work in a game that does not have state stabilization. I would have struggled to make it work if the game were locked to one state, and even then, it would only have worked in scenarios. I stand by my assertion that it is unworkable in a state-unstable game.
Thank you for that. It puts a lot of things into perspective. I believe most if not all of the players on this server, and gamers in general can appreciate and empathize with you. Best of wishes for you IRL.

Having said that, and understanding your viewpoints on WP/DoK, I have to say that I hope someone takes your advice as a challenge on the Dev/GM team. There was a lot of lessons learned from the experiment, and I have no doubt that it would be ridiculously difficult, and require taking a metric-ass-tonne of **** from particular people... It's good to know that the experimental mode wont be returning any time soon however. I know that I was not alone in believing that it was.

Cheers.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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Sacrx
Posts: 17

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#44 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:17 am

Azarael wrote:Outside of my own situation, I have recommended to the other members of the team that they drop the melee/casted hybrid healing concept because it is too difficult to make work in a game that does not have state stabilization. I would have struggled to make it work if the game were locked to one state, and even then, it would only have worked in scenarios. I stand by my assertion that it is unworkable in a state-unstable game.

Where does this leave Experimental mode with Archmage/Shaman?. Will it be removed also if not being tweaked/worked on.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#45 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:07 am

Az - I wish you well, sir. Don't know you at all, but I hope your RL stuff works itself out for the better. You seem like an alright dude.

As for melee DoKs... they don't crop up regularly, but there are very good melee DoKs already that crop up in scenarios. The one I've faced before had a chosen and a BO with him, and potentially was running in a full group. He took top damage (by a large margin) and maybe top healing, if not near the top, in the multiple scenarios I saw. WP is no where near that level of effectiveness being melee, but it's certainly viable in low-scale rvr. Are there more effective groups? Probably.. but it's certainly viable.
<Salt Factory>

Foltestik
Posts: 680

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#46 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:14 am

Its posible to roll back all changes on characters and make game like it was on live?

Daknallbomb
Posts: 1781

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#47 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:18 am

Foltestik wrote:Its posible to roll back all changes on characters and make game like it was on live?
Are you crazy?
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

Foltestik
Posts: 680

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#48 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:24 am

Daknallbomb wrote:
Foltestik wrote:Its posible to roll back all changes on characters and make game like it was on live?
Are you crazy?
no

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Daknallbomb
Posts: 1781

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#49 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:25 am

Hmm okay. Wy The hell you want that?
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

Foltestik
Posts: 680

Re: Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

Post#50 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:28 am

Daknallbomb wrote:Hmm okay. Wy The hell you want that?
becouse now are the changes on half way. and i think same are realy crap
and if there will be no more balance changes is better to go back same like it was on live

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