Zone Swapping ---- again

[peterthepan3]

no semblance of skill or cohesion required

Whoa, big boi, hol up!
I'm getting that you seriously believe that your kiddy games of punt'n'guard-swap in those scenario-cribs somehow overshadow the skill involved in moving as a single unit-raid of 20+ppl, each performing their specifically assigned tasks, working in unison and constantly having to adapt to the ever-changing situation on the battlefield within the RvR zone.
And that's only scratching the surface of it

That why you guys always dodge Isha/EC pops, or dodge Phalanx offer for 24v24? Because you're after that skillbased pvp? i'm judging my comments based on what I see - both in RvR and vids - and there is nothing amazing whatsoever about it, no way near to the degree you're making it out to be.

Phalanx and Tup? BT? Sure, they actually look for challenges and do their best to get away from the zerg. Can't say the same about you guys, from what I've seen.

I can be petty, too. #Derail

[Scrilian]

That why you guys always dodge Isha/EC pops, or dodge Phalanx offer for 24v24? Because you're after that skillbased pvp? i'm judging my comments based on what I see - both in RvR and vids - and there is nothing amazing whatsoever about it, no way near to the degree you're making it out to be.

Phalanx and Tup? BT? Sure, they actually look for challenges and do their best to get away from the zerg. Can't say the same about you guys, from what I've seen.

I can be petty, too. #Derail

I'm not being petty, just realistic.
Hey, it's not me spouting out nonsense in pretty much every post possible about how your favorite mini-game is the be all end all pinnacle of skill while being nothing but a huffing his own farts mailbox guard.
TUP and phalanx not sticking to the zergs? Please, kiddo.
And I haven't dodged anything as far as I'm aware off, so ease your silly ad hom a bit.

Doesn't make you more skilled, but if the healer messes up in a 3men its an instant wipe. If a healer messes up in a 24 man warband, only 1 party will be crippled, and you have 7 possible people to ress him back up. Also you prove that I'm right with your own words. The fact that it is harder to point out the mistakes is because mistakes of single persons have less impact on the fight than in 6 man.

Gotcha, the less numbers involved - the more skilled it gets.

[Darosh]

Doesn't make you more skilled, but if the healer messes up in a 3men its an instant wipe. If a healer messes up in a 24 man warband, only 1 party will be crippled, and you have 7 possible people to ress him back up. Also you prove that I'm right with your own words. The fact that it is harder to point out the mistakes is because mistakes of single persons have less impact on the fight than in 6 man.

Gotcha, the less numbers involved - the more skilled it gets.

Yes, as with more numbers involved the individual ineptitude is being swallowed by the mass ~ not to mention it comes down to pug SC-esque dice rolls in terms of what you are actually facing. Rolling over pug warbands isn't difficault, is it?
I, too, am waiting for any proper, organized 24v24 - the only ones that have yet engaged in that and have earned themselves bragging rights are BT and Phalanx. Everyone else is just circlejerking about, accusing each other of zerging, endlessly.

[Akalukz]

Sorry for the thread to go to RvR vs 6 Man etc. Was just wanting to make sure that the 2 zergs don't go to 2 seperate zones and deliberately look for unopposed keeps to take like it has been in the past on live etc. Sounds like they have it under control. i do believe that the number of open zones / rewards should scale with the number of folks fighting in the zone though. Wish there was a way to have AAO help with the bag roll, just not sure how to make it non exploitable.

[zumos2]

Doesn't make you more skilled, but if the healer messes up in a 3men its an instant wipe. If a healer messes up in a 24 man warband, only 1 party will be crippled, and you have 7 possible people to ress him back up. Also you prove that I'm right with your own words. The fact that it is harder to point out the mistakes is because mistakes of single persons have less impact on the fight than in 6 man.

Gotcha, the less numbers involved - the more skilled it gets.

Indeed, however that doesn't have to mean the players are less skilled.

[peterthepan3]

That why you guys always dodge Isha/EC pops, or dodge Phalanx offer for 24v24? Because you're after that skillbased pvp? i'm judging my comments based on what I see - both in RvR and vids - and there is nothing amazing whatsoever about it, no way near to the degree you're making it out to be.

Phalanx and Tup? BT? Sure, they actually look for challenges and do their best to get away from the zerg. Can't say the same about you guys, from what I've seen.

I can be petty, too. #Derail

I'm not being petty, just realistic.
Hey, it's not me spouting out nonsense in pretty much every post possible about how your favorite mini-game is the be all end all pinnacle of skill while being nothing but a huffing his own farts mailbox guard.
TUP and phalanx not sticking to the zergs? Please, kiddo.
And I haven't dodged anything as far as I'm aware off, so ease your silly ad hom a bit.

Doesn't make you more skilled, but if the healer messes up in a 3men its an instant wipe. If a healer messes up in a 24 man warband, only 1 party will be crippled, and you have 7 possible people to ress him back up. Also you prove that I'm right with your own words. The fact that it is harder to point out the mistakes is because mistakes of single persons have less impact on the fight than in 6 man.

Gotcha, the less numbers involved - the more skilled it gets.

That's probably because, for some strange reason, I actually like competitive PvP and hate pug farming, and so I want to see it encouraged, whereas you are happy to just farm pugs on arguably the easiest class in the game, and walk around like a god for doing so. To each their own

will take my leave, sorry for derail. gotta call out ****, though.

[dansari]

There are downsides to the current system that are hard to account for... some people go to the "off" zones to find small scale "action," (action, in this context, meaning grouping with their other l33t rr70+ friends and wiping lowbie pugs afk on BOs). But, there's certainly a substantial part of the population that doesn't like blobbing (which is more prevalent during EU than NA, fortunately) and if the off zones were more populated, I think the server would be healthier as a whole.

Part of the issue is that there is very little incentive to break up the masses I have witnessed sometimes where one side has 285.7% aao. If there was a viable solution (that is not related to individual reduction of stats or increases in damage that will just exacerbate the issue), then it should be explored. Hard to find that solution, though.

In my experience, the sweet spot for RVR is around 60% aao opposition. This normally allows you to have enough numbers to take a keep and progress a campaign without getting stuck in a keep funnel for hours since defense is laughably easy.

Edit: at least before the most recent patch, if you had an immense amount of aao you had a good chance of getting a bag out of it. Now it's just an unfun, one-sided stompfest

[Darosh]

Part of the issue is that there is very little incentive to break up the masses I have witnessed sometimes where one side has 285.7% aao. If there was a viable solution (that is not related to individual reduction of stats or increases in damage that will just exacerbate the issue), then it should be explored. Hard to find that solution, though.

Thinking about that, a fancy mechanism to regulate population could be a timer that ticks down, and if x, y or z objectives aren't conquered/contested by then an evil creature spawns aiding the underdog, or a storm of sorts breaks loose (the latter is how CU is going to try and keep zerging in check, one surely could utilize that idea on RoR too - bind the useage of heals to a nasty serverside AoE [no one gets loots for kills caused by it = no abuse] when a certain treshold is surpassed, either number of players in the vicinity or AAO). No stat increases, or anything. Rather upping the difficaulity on a metalevel.

[dansari]

Thinking about that, a fancy mechanism to regulate population could be a timer that ticks down, and if x, y or z objectives aren't conquered/contested by then an evil creature spawns aiding the underdog, or a storm of sorts breaks loose (the latter is how CU is going to try and keep zerging in check, one surely could utilize that idea on RoR too - bind the useage of heals to a nasty serverside AoE [no one gets loots for kills caused by it = no abuse] when a certain treshold is surpassed, either number of players in the vicinity or AAO). No stat increases, or anything. Rather upping the difficaulity on a metalevel.

Certainly intriguing ideas. I wouldn't want to see it until 80-100% aao though. Would want to also scale it to NA.. it's already hard enough to take a keep during NA without being vs 80 aao

[Scrilian]

Yes, as with more numbers involved the individual ineptitude is being swallowed by the mass ~ not to mention it comes down to pug SC-esque dice rolls in terms of what you are actually facing. Rolling over pug warbands isn't difficault, is it?
I, too, am waiting for any proper, organized 24v24 - the only ones that have yet engaged in that and have gained themselves bragging rights are BT and Phalanx. Everyone else is just circlejerking about, accusing each other of zerging, endlessly.

This just doesn't add up, sorry. Still following the same logic - a few individual mistakes can cause deaths of many more people, therefore I can conclude that more skill was involved.
It's just silly, I fail to see how personal skill can overshadow roughly the same amount of personal skill with added collective skill on top in all aspects. Glaring example would be raids and 5men dungeons of WoW, and I doubt that you would argue in favor of dungeons being harder and superior content skill-wise. Same concept applies to RvR.

To sum it up - large-scale basically trades your reliance on immunity timings for more positional awareness on top of having to adjust your actions to a larger amount of players, both allied and enemy, within unquestionably much more unpredictable environment.
Communication and logistics, morale and sneaky tactics, etc. gets involved, besides large-scale fights are brutally quick, where you have to adjust on the fly within mere seconds, unlike i.e. 6v6 where you can fall asleep before anyone dies or sc's respawn camping - all those things have to be worked out and add an extra layer of personal and collective "skill", which is pretty much absent in all other small-scale activities.

Not that I'm shitting on those, at least not too much, but just to dismiss and brush off RvR as unskilled brainless zergfest is outright disingenuous.

happy to just farm pugs

I wound't get this much flak if it's only pugs I was farming, I mean, ahem, "blob-zerging".
But i get what you mean, you enjoy more of less equal footing. And I prefer more things like a drunken bar brawl with knives'n'shiet, where a tough guy can die to a well placed and maybe slightly unfair suckerpunch.