Cost of +25 talis

[georgehabadasher]

So at 8 talisman slots per character x 3 champ marks per talisman, you’re looking at 24 speed runs to get full talismans if you’ve already unlocked the achievements and spent those marks.
24 speed runs per character…

[gisborne]

You have to if you want BiS gear in this pvp game, more so with almost every patch it seems.

Give specific examples, because other than BS weapons being (arguably) BiS everything else is either from PvP or you can buy with gold.

Just say you don’t know bro lol.

You had me doubting so I looked at the 5 of the players with top kills. All were wearing Sov and/or Tri mix. Maybe you've got some niche build that uses PvE gear but don't pretend that is the norm.

[gisborne]

I expect we'll see some natural growing pains as the team begins to shift away from "War Crests for everything, everywhere" and back into specific types of content being required to earn specific things.

War crests do not allow to get everything, PvE is needed to get money to buy Annulus or Talismans, to get Bloodlord weapon, to get BiS options with LV or Darkpromise gear.
From you message could you confirm that PvE will be even more needed later?

You don't need to PvE to get money. You can get 60g per week from the RvR weekly (nearly 1g/crest). Over a year that's 3000g, enough to buy 2 annuli. You can make money from cultivating while doing PvP. You can convert crests to gold by buying potions to sell on AH. Then there's events throughout the year which allow for a huge amount of money without touching PvE at all.

But I think what you mean is you can't get all this stuff in a month or less for no effort. Oh no.

[gisborne]

So at 8 talisman slots per character x 3 champ marks per talisman, you’re looking at 24 speed runs to get full talismans if you’ve already unlocked the achievements and spent those marks.
24 speed runs per character…

Yea, it's a lot. Why is the PvE portion so much more effort than the PvP portion (which is essentially free)?

[gisborne]

Personally, I’d stick with the +23 talisman.
I change builds—and therefore talismans—too often to already justify using +24, so +25 with such an insane cost ? No thanks.

I just see this new feature as a totally artificial grind; sure, it might be a way to sell off our Warcrests, but given the cost, what will the price actually be?

Will people really want to pay a fortune for a few extra stats that don't add much, aside from the feeling of having "completed" their character?

Yea, god forbid you want to change talismans and have to do that PvE grind all over again.

Perhaps the +25 talismans should be removable from gear? Then you could trade them to swap stats.

[wonshot]

...Hey there!...

Thanks for commenting and sharing some thourghts and answering some questions.
But it is almost baffling to me, how a post with so far 3 pages of only disagreeing comments is still not even enough to seemingly open up for the thought about this might not be the right approach. Based on your posts here, you sound like you so firmly belive this is still the right move to make Champion marks a requirement.

That, honestly, sound like you are too invested in the idea that you become deaf to feedback.
Right now Champeon marks added as a requirement, does not need a sink. And by having it combined, it sounds like several players who could use this Warcrest sink +25 talismans are strongly contemplating not even getting involved in this chase sink grind, simply because of the burn-out of dungeon spamming. We have done our dungeons on our characters to get the wards. The dorp, the bis. We really dont look forward to having a Warcrest sink "forcing" us to go into dungeons again.

Right now on my personal account and my characters I would have to go into dungeons again on about 5 of my characters who are in need of a warcrest sink.
Rest of them are either not there, or so much of an alt that this endgame chase doesnt involve them.
But there is no way in Hell that I want to run dungeons 3 weeks in a row to get just one out of X talismans, per character..
Right now my tolerance of dungeons is that I did them 13 times to get my sentinel rings back in the day. Ive boosted and helped countless guildies and pugs over the years to get their wards and inf. I dont really want to feel any level of forceness to step into these dungeons again. And yes then it is very easy to say "well dont, noone forces you, this is just a +1stat per slot increase" Correct. But that defeats the whole purpose of the Warcrest sink then right. I have been passing for 3+ years now on my Fireclown i still have 83k crest or whatever.
I had really hoped that if you make a warcrest sink, it would be to upset the total amount of warcrest needed due to the 2k ring price reduction patch incoming.

Right now we have had 3 bigger forum topics over the last 2 months, all of them are pretty monotone towards the community NOT agreeing with the direction of PvE requirement for BiS. Even by talking it with a gran of salt, please read through the Roadmap annoucement pages, Read the "is fun decreasing" and read the general tone in this topic here. Going through with Champeon marks, seem stuborn, selfish and tonedeaf at this point. And is very very disappointing based on how unified and loud the community has been towards this direction.

There must be other alternatives to endgame warcrest chase items, instead of Champion marks. That still meets the critiria of "skill" matching endgame performance, and not being gated by availability. See my previous post with examples. Such as added it into RvR bags, lotd, or gating it behind RR. Then atleast you have players trying harder to win rvr, lotd or getting more RR to increase their chances and keeping RvR bags relevant even after you have BiS.

If this still goes through, I honestly think we the community have a lot of questions to ask about what level of disagreement must be reached before feedback is listened to. But thats the issue isnt it, that unofficial poll results, and pages uppon pages are just not being heard because there seems to be a direction of "nah we know better, trust us"

Look at the track record of WS/ini patch. The community didnt like it, it was still forced through.
Look at the GCD increase feedback.
Look at the roadmap where barely a single post is possitive about T3 dungeon, or City PQs
Look at Strikethrough changes and how barely any parts of the community agreed.
Look at the way procs were handled after Ability overhaul, the community wanted it to just be like it was pre Ability overhaul.
Look at patch that changed weapon proc statweight and how almost not a single player went "oh yeah this is nice"

Naturally we players will often be afraid of change, and it will be a loud minority speaking up. But thats where you could use polls more often. or look at if an upcoming change is overwhelmingly negatively resieved like champeons marks, then maybe atleast be more open towards changing it.

Having to run 3 speedruns over 3 weeks, to get pure talismans are not more skillful that pushing a zone and getting a goldbag, instead of a whitebag, because you played harder. Warcrest sink being blocked by pve fanatism is counter productive!

[kleinbuchstabe]

Maybe a sink of wartokens would have been better than champions marks

[georgehabadasher]

...Hey there!...

Thanks for commenting and sharing some thourghts and answering some questions.
But it is almost baffling to me, how a post with so far 3 pages of only disagreeing comments is still not even enough to seemingly open up for the thought about this might not be the right approach. Based on your posts here, you sound like you so firmly belive this is still the right move to make Champion marks a requirement.

That, honestly, sound like you are too invested in the idea that you become deaf to feedback.
Right now Champeon marks added as a requirement, does not need a sink. And by having it combined, it sounds like several players who could use this Warcrest sink +25 talismans are strongly contemplating not even getting involved in this chase sink grind, simply because of the burn-out of dungeon spamming. We have done our dungeons on our characters to get the wards. The dorp, the bis. We really dont look forward to having a Warcrest sink "forcing" us to go into dungeons again.

Right now on my personal account and my characters I would have to go into dungeons again on about 5 of my characters who are in need of a warcrest sink.
Rest of them are either not there, or so much of an alt that this endgame chase doesnt involve them.
But there is no way in Hell that I want to run dungeons 3 weeks in a row to get just one out of X talismans, per character..
Right now my tolerance of dungeons is that I did them 13 times to get my sentinel rings back in the day. Ive boosted and helped countless guildies and pugs over the years to get their wards and inf. I dont really want to feel any level of forceness to step into these dungeons again. And yes then it is very easy to say "well dont, noone forces you, this is just a +1stat per slot increase" Correct. But that defeats the whole purpose of the Warcrest sink then right. I have been passing for 3+ years now on my Fireclown i still have 83k crest or whatever.
I had really hoped that if you make a warcrest sink, it would be to upset the total amount of warcrest needed due to the 2k ring price reduction patch incoming.

Right now we have had 3 bigger forum topics over the last 2 months, all of them are pretty monotone towards the community NOT agreeing with the direction of PvE requirement for BiS. Even by talking it with a gran of salt, please read through the Roadmap annoucement pages, Read the "is fun decreasing" and read the general tone in this topic here. Going through with Champeon marks, seem stuborn, selfish and tonedeaf at this point. And is very very disappointing based on how unified and loud the community has been towards this direction.

There must be other alternatives to endgame warcrest chase items, instead of Champion marks. That still meets the critiria of "skill" matching endgame performance, and not being gated by availability. See my previous post with examples. Such as added it into RvR bags, lotd, or gating it behind RR. Then atleast you have players trying harder to win rvr, lotd or getting more RR to increase their chances and keeping RvR bags relevant even after you have BiS.

If this still goes through, I honestly think we the community have a lot of questions to ask about what level of disagreement must be reached before feedback is listened to. But thats the issue isnt it, that unofficial poll results, and pages uppon pages are just not being heard because there seems to be a direction of "nah we know better, trust us"

Look at the track record of WS/ini patch. The community didnt like it, it was still forced through.
Look at the GCD increase feedback.
Look at the roadmap where barely a single post is possitive about T3 dungeon, or City PQs
Look at Strikethrough changes and how barely any parts of the community agreed.
Look at the way procs were handled after Ability overhaul, the community wanted it to just be like it was pre Ability overhaul.
Look at patch that changed weapon proc statweight and how almost not a single player went "oh yeah this is nice"

Naturally we players will often be afraid of change, and it will be a loud minority speaking up. But thats where you could use polls more often. or look at if an upcoming change is overwhelmingly negatively resieved like champeons marks, then maybe atleast be more open towards changing it.

Having to run 3 speedruns over 3 weeks, to get pure talismans are not more skillful that pushing a zone and getting a goldbag, instead of a whitebag, because you played harder. Warcrest sink being blocked by pve fanatism is counter productive!

Great post. Especially the part in bold. Most of those changes that have been almost universally disapproved of by the community have also had serious repercussions harming gameplay.

Ws/ini change just nerfed melee.
Willpower and disrupt scaling made healers functionally immune to casters, which was exacerbated by the strike through patch.
And so on…

For a dev team that constantly complains of being unpaid volunteers with too much on their plates, they certainly seem eager to keep piling unnecessary reworks and changes onto those plates.

[vipevox]

My opinion is that the developers are spending a lot of time and effort on PvE dungeons, and therefore there's an obsession with forcing everyone who doesn't want to get in by any means necessary. This is only because so much effort has been spent on this area, not because it's genuinely interesting to users.

[Nelly74]

Personally, I enjoy PvE and I do it regularly with my guild. I also really appreciate the work done by the PvE team (great job, guys!!!).
But speed runs... seriously??!, I feel like I'm back on WoW. What's the point of forcing speed runs? Isn't there something better to do? I don't know, maybe tie those +25 talismans to Capital Sieges instead?
Why come up with a good idea only to undermine it with poor implementation? Why not simply ask the community what it wants? I don't understand this approach of imposing changes when the overall feedback has been negative.
As mentioned previously, the WS patch is the best example of this.
I also think polls are the best option.
I don't think I'm the only one who's worried about the upcoming changes after one disappointment and one nonsensical decision after another.
To be honest, without the Warhammer universe, I think many of us would already have moved on to something else a long time ago, and I think that one day soon, even that won't be enough anymore.