[Blackguard] Blade of Ruin disscussion

[TenTonHammer]

It's an interesting idea and quite like to discuss it when balance fourms are open

There will be Ordo bias players who scream bloody murder though

I still want our 10s crimson death though

[Gobtar]

I will repost it in the balance discussion, it's just something I wanted to get out there, especially considering the conversation that has been had on a "2 hander KD".

I am hoping cooler heads will prevail and we can talk about this suggestion calmly. I have put a lot of thought into this.

[Tesq]

dont like your swap suggestion, you basically remove the "damage reducion skill" that for BG is force fo fury and put it in another path which make BG better in 1 path and further reduces the utility of mid path which noone gona spec that way unless get the toughness tactic wich mean max 3pt cos there is alredy BO that gona spec aoe snare.

if you really want to swap stuff, choking fury and elite trainign should be swap that way elite training would have the same position of ap auras which is exatly what is like (instead reduces ap from enemy only regen 2x ap x sec of chosen/kobs aura).

the same should happen between anger drive me and feeding on pain which would allow to get the base self defense meccanic of BG easier with less point.

but this is till not a solution for blade of ruin, you will just move blade of ruin into another path weakling 1 path, trying make 2h bg more defensive but force of fury do not prevent damage as oppression or vigilance and with so low defense you will still get anyway too many damage from guard and indeed unlesss you stack defenses you cannot prevent guard damages at all.

The only way to make efficent 2h bg is to give it easier acces to parry tactic then you still need to fix blade of ruin.

You would end have a general spec at rank 40 like this way
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

which would be indeed nearer than the currently to he IB base http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

you then could spend 3 point and take 1 last skill, or give away 1 path and further dedicate onto others.

further change could be swap blade of ruin with snare giving black guard a easier acces to aoe snare, then move force of fury where damage reduction skill suppose to be on top of mid path like every other tanks.

then blade of ruin could fit inside 9+1 on mid path and being rework to do give BG the survability it lack compared to IB/KOBS.

IB get all his best utility tools between 5-9 points while "instead" BG get em between 9-11

considering is not a mistery that bg is the worst pve tank out there, cuz not 100% update time armor buff/ none block buff, blade of ruin if moved onto pve tank path should help him lower the chance of enemy to hit him. Like -10% striketrought and a damage reduction component -->10 sec duration / 30 sec CD.
(it would both save BG debuffer nature and mirror damage reduction from IB and would complete the 10/30 sec defensive pattern of BG which is lacking of a last skill, that is not challenge).

[TenTonHammer]

Mid spec even without that still has the draw from WoS

Though I feel the big swing with big brawlin is a better melee snare

But if you switch BoR and WoS then you basically kill the loathing tree as every one will basically just do the dps spec build

[Tesq]

Mid spec even without that still has the draw from WoS

Though I feel the big swing with big brawlin is a better melee snare

But if you switch BoR and WoS then you basically kill the loathing tree as every one will basically just do the dps spec build

you need parry tactic and toughness tactic and you can have them with little effort , most s+b tank will go that way as most s+b IB go the build i link when it cames to be durable but also bring utility.
You take too much damage with 1 path with no parry buff... no healer would be able to heal you in aoe when you guard, you would implode in 5 seconds. The toughness tactic is like mandatory since is a lot more efficent than rugged and allow you to put points in something other like defense or offesive stats.
The aoe snare should be easier to obtain for BG/IB, have it not easier like IB it's a shame, that very base could be used for a 2h aoe WB build first+mid path or a Scenary ST first + third path

BG would have 3 playable build for rvr and 1 tanky build for pve

general base build: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
2h aoe http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
st http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... :;;0:0:0:0:
tank pve: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

anyway it would be a lot easier build a BG this way, i wanna let you note again that currently bg get his stuff between 9-11 points while IB between 5-9, it's really hard tell that IB is not better than BG in this scenario.
The mid path is anyway reserved to tank pve or self defense for every tank which is what bg lack a bit atm and an aoe snare is not well placed there. Which should be placed onto utility path (which is third one) or a coevalent place where ib got stuff ( which is 5 pt first path).
Being snare place taken by ap regen on BG , the snare must go in the only place where can go, swaped it with blade of ruin where IB have his crit buff. Blade of ruin need a rework anyway so it can be changed to anything, once teh general position of other stuff is better balanced with IB you can then fix blade of ruin.

[Gobtar]

When I wrote this suggestion I was writing it purely from the BG perspective and not comparing it to it's mirror.

The reason why i made the suggestions I made was to make Blade of Ruin both a new tanking ability similar to Ya missed me combined with a KD for 2h tanks adding a bit of CC for an alternative 2h specs.

You can't put WoS in Malice because it makes Malice+Anguish too good.

The reason why WoS cannot be put any lower or traded directly with BoR is because of how good the Malice+Anguish combo is. Force of Fury is utterly meh, at first it looks good but then you realize it is percentage of your actually crit chance , not a blanked crit reduction and it ends up being peanuts...EDIT: this was how it worked on live, not ROR, it is actually useful on ROR.


The armour buff once again replaced by armour pot. it's hardly worth a mastery point unless you have a free one, Elite Training on the other hand is a must need for any 2-hander spec as a guarnteed parry pop, it's seconday effect of AP is really not worth mentioning. Anguish does not get better by losing Elite Training for Force of Fury.

If you fully read my post, I am making Blade of Ruin really good, good for group utility and good for a 2-hander tank...but I am putting it in a tree that really makes Black Guards decide how they are going to spec. Iron Breakers have the same choice; In tier 4 the IB has to figure out if they want to go Brotherhood + Stone or Brotherhood and Vengence... Black Guard have one spec: Malice + Anguish.

With my suggestions: BG can feasibly go 2h Malice + Loathing; SnB Loathing Anguish; or SnB DPS/2h ultimate Malice Anguish. These tactic changes might make the BGs spec more interesting as well but not related to the changes I was thinking of.

[Tesq]

i know what you mean i was just comparing what we have with bg vs IB and how typically is a tank path and i saw holes in the BG skills range .
Force of fury is not so bad ,the armor value is greater than any potion (1200 vs 900)
BG def pattern ( based around skill that use 10/ 30 sec ) lack a third one. And had saw as IB get all his tool lower in mastery i see really no reason to not make this happen, also IB mid path is in the same way; a tank path, you do not spec into it unless do a tri path spec.
Then too good is forcefull, BG have all ST debuff which mean the area of effect it still 1 ppl...
IB have BUff ...st yes but buff 10% crit of a slayer that do aoe mean his buff have a aoe utility.
BG definettly deserve to have more tools at disposition than the currently situation.
The first path need to be considered mirrored with kobs and not IB anyway.

BG 2h cross mirror kobs.

kobs 2h wounds debuff (chosen blast wave )
BG 2h crit (kobs crit buff + 2h requirement for woudns debuff)
chosen rending blade ( IB rune etched axe)

there are a lot of cross mirrors on the offensive path. For me it would be better first put in line the def rotation + als BG and his utility low braket in mastery paths to be similar with IB (regard quantity at least) and then talk about a 2h KD which is not really needed as every melee have a melee kd ( appart mara). They now are 3sec kd after 1.4.7 so the lack of a 2h kd could had been true in pre melee kd unwanted change but it is not so bad now.

Just look IB utility build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Any Ib can have all his utility in 1 build if he want, BG cannot. and this with out going 2h.

The difference by ib/bg 2h is the 2h kd vs 2h crit buff (which also mirror the oath crit buff of IB in some way).
That's why i would like have BG mid path fixed for being a truly tank path and not a fail one and then have bg utility in line with IB one.

[Gobtar]

there are a lot of cross mirrors on the offensive path. For me it would be better first put in line the def rotation + als BG and his utility low braket in mastery paths to be similar with IB (regard quantity at least) and then talk about a 2h KD which is not really needed as every melee have a melee kd ( appart mara). They now are 3sec kd after 1.4.7 so the lack of a 2h kd could had been true in pre melee kd unwanted change but it is not so bad now.

Just look IB utility build:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Any Ib can have all his utility in 1 build if he want, BG cannot. and this with out going 2h.

The difference by ib/bg 2h is the 2h kd vs 2h crit buff (which also mirror the oath crit buff of IB in some way).
That's why i would like have BG mid path fixed for being a truly tank path and not a fail one and then have bg utility in line with IB one.

Marauders have a 3s AoE KD. I really am not going to get into the merits of tanks needing CC, but they do, BG have the least CC of any tank, the two they have are really good. A common argument against this is their ability to lock down a target and still apply damage. But we can see Tanks like SMs and BG outshine the BG in this regard and still have superior CC. The BO specifically (4s Silence, 3s on demand KD, still tons of damage). SMs in tier 4 will be able to go full khaine and still get a KD...SMs and BOs arguably having the best damage and burst of any tank.

I actually think the change to equalize CC was dumb, like super dumb. Not all CC are created equal, and MDPS all getting a buff to their CC was mind boggling (a 2s KD on a WH/WE was already close to a death sentence in Tier 4)...Sure BG slipped through the cracks and kept their 5s KD but I still think that blanket change was retarded. (Torque level Carrie-rage comes to mind)

Either way, my suggestion is a foundation that could be built on but the key factor is allowing the BG to keep utility whilst going 2h and still not buffing the Malice + Anguish combo.

[Tesq]

for what you said you need to agree with me that due the disparity between IB-->BG need a easier access to cc than now

i agree with you on the kd patch, buT at the actually state of the things with M.kd being 3sec having a 2h KD is not mandatry for bg, it could be in the case melee kd return to be 2sec.
Why npt give better acces to 1+3 path.....that's exatly what every other tank have

Mid path is for pve + self defense utility, i don't get why the hell bg is the only tank to have cc on the pve+ tank path while not on the supprt path (3rd)

[Gobtar]

for what you said you need to agree with me that due the disparity between IB-->BG need a easier access to cc than now

i agree with you on the kd patch, buT at the actually state of the things with M.kd being 3sec having a 2h KD is not mandatory for bg, it could be in the case melee kd return to be 2sec.
Why npt give better access to 1+3 path.....that's exatly what every other tank have

Mid path is for pve + self defense utility, i don't get why the hell bg is the only tank to have cc on the pve+ tank path while not on the supprt path (3rd)

My stance on the IB vs BG does not mean I can compromise my opinion that Malice + Anguish shouldn't be buffed. I also don't believe the middle tree should be strictly for PvE. It is true that the IB only needs to spec 1 way for DPS but I am not so sure that a BG should also have all of it's toys in one path.

The suggestion I was making was more of a compromise than anything else due to the difficult nature of requesting buffs. I addressed the concerns from the previous thread, where the conclusion was that the Malice+Anguish BG was already powerful, I dissected it and built a solution that addressed these concerns and still gave BGs a 2h KD.
With the exception of Cave-in Most other KDs are on the 9th slot of the middle tree. My suggestion falls in line with that concept as well.

I do agree that easier access to the parry tactic (Coordination and Mixed Defences both requiring 4 points) might be needed, but tactic shifting can be discussed in it's own thread. I believe Az is going to be working on all tactics in the future. I also think the anti-detaunt tactic belongs in the DPS tree for example.