[Eng/Magus] Sticky Bombs / Seed of Chaos

[Luth]

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

That argument is not entirely invalid, but on order you have to find a 2h kotbs or 2h slayer for your group. That easily available wounds debuffs exist on many classes for one faction, while they are very rare for the other one should be imo considered as a balance failure by mythic, which is maybe corrected via future balance proposals. Adding a viable debuff to the ability shouldn't be dismissed just because 4 other destruction classes have it too (particularly if this proposal affects factions); otherwise no viable debuffs could be ever added to any ability, "because the marauder has it".

That doesn't mean that it is my opinion that a range wounds debuff is a good idea; they should be rare as they are quite powerful and to get access to one, you should give up something else (like in the case of the kotbs or better: slayer).

As far as I known , slayer has a CD debuff while concussive mine increase cast time and can be applied all the time.

Ah you got me there...but CD debuff and increase cast time, esenntially, do the same thing, except the slayer can keep applying it.

A 5 second cooldown increase does exactly what it suggests: it increases the cooldown of almost any ability by 5 seconds; that means it affects abilities without a cooldown too.
A disorient raises the cast times of abilities that have cast times. They are entirely different and the disorient is mostl useful against cloth range classes, while the CD increase is useful against everyone.

[Karast]

I was thinking of adding some proc like nitroglycerin grenade did :
A grenade attack which covers your target with explosives for 10 seconds. Any time they are hit by a melee or ranged attack, there is a 25% chance that all enemies within 20 feet of them will take damage.

When you throw a sticky bomb, melee or ranged attack can increase explosions proc ? Throwing sticky bomb would deal a dot but with the nitroglycerin grenade proc, sticky bomb can make aoe explosions when the target take damage from ranged or melee ?

I'd definitely be up for the replacement of Sticky Bomb and Strafing run with new abilities. I'd imagine once they have client control + patcher theyd be able to reintroduce the lost Alpha/Beta abilities still hanging around in the client.

Staffing Run is not a bad ability tbh. If it just scaled properly with spec points the damage on it would be fantastic with M2 for a bit of AoE burst. It was useful for such on live, and with proper scaling it would crit like a beast.

It's just that the knock back is impossibly hard to accurately time and place due to the delay, and the relative shortness or the knockback itself. It is just not very effective as either an offensive or defensive CC due to the long animation and short distance.

If the damage was fixed, the knock back removed, and then an additional effect or additional damage added, it could be a very useful ability.

[Tifereth]

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

That argument is not entirely invalid, but on order you have to find a 2h kotbs or 2h slayer for your group. That easily available wounds debuff exists on many classes for one faction, while they are very rare for the other...

This statement right here, both thumbs up. People like to point out how order crit stacking is ridiculously good (which it is) while
completely sweeping under the rug that one faction has a load of wounds debuffs in their cookie cutter meta builds and the other doesn't. Just for the record: I also wouldn't want a wounds debuff on the engi necessarily tbh, since it would make ST sniper rotations even more potent than they already are if tree layout were to remain the same, but that's a good balance discussion for another day imo. More debuffs of the same type with the same strength level would bring more options to the table, no matter if they are redundant or not. Classes like the BG suffer because their debuffs are weaker, not because they are the same type.

I favour OP's idea of the proposal, playing to the strengths of the aoe tree ie aoe damage. People love to bring up engineer scenario
screens with huge fluff numbers, but it's just that. Fluff. Pretty sure we are all aware that in the meta Engi/Magus dots are mostly there to bury more meaningful debuffs or to cause collateral among unguarded and/or unhealed pugs. Having something that procs on damage will add to the burst, but I'm not quite sure it'll be enough for any meaningful impact. As long as the DoK M2 Khaine's Withdrawal (How is that skill still even here?) and to a lesser extend group cleanse is around, dots will never be more than glorified clutter to act as bodyguards for the heavy lifters such as heal debuffs. Napalm/Mist nerf, and generally lackluster dot damage are a problem in of itself. If dots shall remain untouched, upping Strafing Run damage or even moving Phosphorous Shells, swapping the two of them sounds good enough. It will only work for one class though, leaving some questionsmarks over what to do with the Magus Seed.

Just as a sidenote: This thread is very heavy on engineer viewpoints atm. Somebody said Magi are using Seed in their rotation? Can anybody like Peter or Nuclear confirm? I somehow doubt it, but last time I played my Magus actively was in 2010 or so, so...

[Tankbeardz]

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

That argument is not entirely invalid, but on order you have to find a 2h kotbs or 2h slayer for your group. That easily available wounds debuffs exist on many classes for one faction, while they are very rare for the other one should be imo considered as a balance failure by mythic, which is maybe corrected via future balance proposals. Adding a viable debuff to the ability shouldn't be dismissed just because 4 other destruction classes have it too (particularly if this proposal affects factions); otherwise no viable debuffs could be ever added to any ability, "because the marauder has it".

That doesn't mean that it is my opinion that a range wounds debuff is a good idea; they should be rare as they are quite powerful and to get access to one, you should give up something else (like in the case of the kotbs or better: slayer).

As far as I known , slayer has a CD debuff while concussive mine increase cast time and can be applied all the time.

Ah you got me there...but CD debuff and increase cast time, esenntially, do the same thing, except the slayer can keep applying it.

A 5 second cooldown increase does exactly what it suggests: it increases the cooldown of almost any ability by 5 seconds; that means it affects abilities without a cooldown too.
A disorient raises the cast times of abilities that have cast times. They are entirely different and the disorient is mostl useful against cloth range classes, while the CD increase is useful against everyone.

We can agree to disagree. The end effect is basically locking down skills, whether it is by increasing the time to cast or by reducing the availability of skills.

[Tankbeardz]

One of the things people need to think about when suggesting putting a debuff on the explosion effect of these skills is that, that is a horrible place to put it.

After extensive testing getting the explosion to trigger is no easy task. The skill needs to be up for 15s, you cannot reapply within that time frame because reapplying, refreshes the dot meaning you loose the explosion, and it can be cleansed.

Even in the best of scenarios 15s is a long time, and even with grenade turret out for the improved 10s, you cannot put an important debuff like a heal / wounds / whatever debuff on a 10-15s delay. That is too unpredictable, and unreliable for any kind of premade or warband play. It would be next to useless.

The thing people need to think about with these abilities is what propose do they serve? They do not provide any kind of dps or burst at all. The only reason anyone even uses them is try to prevent more important dots from being cleansed. If cleansing were fixed or adjusted, they would be totally useless.

My main goal with the suggestion is to make these abilities meaningful in a dps rotation, and to get away from the weak dots that plague the trees.

It is a telling fact that friction burn does more damage than acid bomb, frag grenade, and sticky bombs combined.

Then put it on the application. Adding damage, just to add damage, isn't the solution.

[Grunbag]

I'd definitely be up for the replacement of Sticky Bomb and Strafing run with new abilities. I'd imagine once they have client control + patcher theyd be able to reintroduce the lost Alpha/Beta abilities still hanging around in the client.

Staffing Run is not a bad ability tbh. If it just scaled properly with spec points the damage on it would be fantastic with M2 for a bit of AoE burst. It was useful for such on live, and with proper scaling it would crit like a beast.

It's just that the knock back is impossibly hard to accurately time and place due to the delay, and the relative shortness or the knockback itself. It is just not very effective as either an offensive or defensive CC due to the long animation and short distance.

If the damage was fixed, the knock back removed, and then an additional effect or additional damage added, it could be a very useful ability.

Strafin run need also some change to be a usefull ability .

The kb is ridiculous , only hit destro in a line in front of you (no aoe radius) , the damages are bad and it does physical damages instead of corporeal (like almost all grenades)

Actually both stinky bomb and strafin run don't worth mastery point in a aoe tree . The only reason to spend mastery point in those ability is to increase grenadier core abilities damages .

There were so much better abilities at AoR release in grenadier tree that has been removed . Increase damage from stinky bomb is a good start , maybe grenadier tree need some aoe direct damages (it has enough dots) , I actually like the proc explosions idea .

Strafin run just need to have a better radius (same à blunderbuss blast for exemple) , change damages to corporeal , and remove the KD or make it longer ?

[porkstar]

Could someone please list the original Engineer abilities in this thread. One of you engies has it. I forget which one. Actually, is there a thread or a link that lists all the original abilities?

[Karast]

Then put it on the application. Adding damage, just to add damage, isn't the solution.

I am missing something here. The ability does not do any significant dps. It is completely outshined by similar spec'd, and non spec'd abilities.

It is nearly as a waste of a GCD and AP. My suggested changes would make it a useful dps ability.

What is the issue with taking a weak and semi broken dps ability, and making it into a useful dps ability?

[Tesq]

Seed of chaos; seems a good name for a heal debuff...

Well seed of chaos suffer from the same secondary effect problem of the canneling ; is tought as if magus kill by watch stuff while insted it have problem kill stuff in first place. Both those eff that work after the target is kill or are kill by that skill are situational if you are very very luck not even at best.
The explosion is too low vs chance to get cleanse x long duration.
Regardless too many dots actually , too many ap and time consume dots that actually do nothing and give too many time to save yourself. There is no reason for not buff it or rewampit for me.

Actualy only squig have a heal debuff as rdps on destru, order side i think that the only dps to have not a heal debuff of at least 25% is engi correct me if i mistake.

I think since the engi have more burst and the magus less the engi should get at least a 25% heal debuff( wounds debuff can be viable too but it could be used for another underperforming skill)
Magus could get a 50% h-debuff or either a kd but due the name a heal debuff feel more in line and it will skyrocked with sorc.
Because sorc =no h- debuff so you took a squig until now tough i prefer more we + squig than sorc + squig.

(With last change to the tactic magus is on par with dmg i think but the rotation is different for first path and it hit hard first so the target see earlier that he have to run plus these tools will probably have a range that will force you to play closer and to play only skills related to that mastery. So it could also help first mastery for the trade off to be nearer. Maybe in the end a wounds debuff would be optimal for engi considering that altedy 2/3 rdps alredy have a h-debuff and order classes miss it.

Btw if the option for the h- debuff is taken into consideration then e new skills disposition on the mastery should be taken into account: so that these skills we are changing go on 13 pt and the magus / engi aoe ground pot go down and can be taken with the pull.

Alternatively as a just to throw it idea : cd reduction for some magus only skills; i hate that i cannot reposition fast enough dissolving mist when i need.

[Tankbeardz]

Then put it on the application. Adding damage, just to add damage, isn't the solution.

I am missing something here. The ability does not do any significant dps. It is completely outshined by similar spec'd, and non spec'd abilities.

It is nearly as a waste of a GCD and AP. My suggested changes would make it a useful dps ability.

What is the issue with taking a weak and semi broken dps ability, and making it into a useful dps ability?

You can make that case for most classes in the game.

DPS isn't the issue. Engi puts out amazing DPS. The problem lies in the fact that engi/magus rely heavily on the layering of dots to add to get their kills since their burst is so much slower than other range DPS classes. The issue is the ease of cleansing and lack of a useful ability to offset it (e.g. a heal debuff, silence, etc.).