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TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#51 » Thu May 28, 2015 6:35 pm

noisestorm wrote:
Tesq wrote:As long ppl understand my counter -reason what i mean it's fine too.
never what a reply in first place.
the problem is you seem to talk about stuff completely unrelated to my post. if you obviously do not even slightly understand what i was writing, then simply do not answer :o

i'll just start ignoring your posts from now on, since they are not only gramatically, but also in terms of your thought process, waaaay to strange/hard to follow. additionally YOUR sense of whats good and what not is in my opinion completely retarded. alone that you do not see any benefit behind the overcapping of your resists/armor for 30 second (with just another whooping 30 seconds downtime WTF) shows me that you have no clue. sure the 75% dmg reduction is nice (and No @your statement: afaik -> morale damage = true damage), but those are just 10 seconds instead of 30 seconds.
But lemme explain why overcapping makes sense (random numbers, but pretty close): We have 75% (softcap) at like 6k Armor. Now we have someone debuffing us for 1600 armor => we go down to ~40% Reduction for Armor here => 35% More damage received.
On the other hand, if we have 6k Armor + ~800 from a M4 and then get debuffed with 1600 again we will just go down to like ~65% armor -> 10% more damage. And since fights tend to take multiple minutes and not just a handful of seconds id ALWAYS prefer a 30second buff over a stronger 10 second one. But whatever.. i feel like wasting ressources when i try to read and answer to your posts. Like stated above - do not even try to respond to me personally since i simply dont care anymore about your posts.

You seems do not understant my perspective. The value of all of this it was like 65-75% only for "armor" there are even resistence in game and for those it's 40%:
As you even stated there are caps so the total reduction is not good as you think.
Hence armor and resistence +75% damage reduction are better than 30 sec of slighter buff.
Also i told moral push make a lot preferable have core moral 4 instead mid moral path. Core is a life saver, mid moral path not.
I alredy explined you why even 60 spam seconds are not good as 20 sec of better damage reduction.

--->"moral and burst".

Your suggested moral would be better if there were in game: less burst / more damage over long time / less heal

While it's the opposite: lot of burst/ insignificant damage over long time/ lot of strong heal ( crit and none).

The game and victory revolve around few seconds of push and balance break due to some skills in game, if you are able to counter those skill that's make the difference from a wb that can kill 3 party and 1 wb that can 2wbs.

BTT: There could and also should be made tons of minor changes all along. the stuff that i suggested was just something thats not too gamebreaking at all, but would still bring an increase in terms of healthiness in the tank-archetype, since obviously some things are more op than others. be it in durations or effects. The problem here comes through the buffs and debuffs offered through other archetypes (mdps/rdps). Like i shortly mentioned the WE m3. Sure kotbs has a nice crit buff, with pretty much perma uptime, but if you consider the IMMENSE burst a group gets offered through the M3 of a WE it someone evens out. Same surely applies for other examples as well, but thats another story.
Like Tenton (i believe he was it?) stated: Better some minor adjustments now in the early stage of the game, than having some big ass change later in t4, where everyone gonna rant about everything. People have to deal with the fact that the balance of War was mostly Sh*t and needs to be overhauled. And i just say you better now than later, so people can actually see how it plays out and tweak and tune the numbers over the way up to t4.

We also had some talk about SM AP drain in another topic, which i didnt mention in my first post, but thats just another example of a skill that can easily be tweaked without creating much of an inbalance in regard of other tanks.
What i personally would be interrested to see is a list of skills what you guys actually find OP or UP. And i mean no walls of text, but simply something like:
"Chosen - Quake: 3 seconds are imo too short!"
This could be personal but i view the game as a close system so i cannot simply touch here and there. It need from my point of view a lists of things that are not in their spot and it need to know where i wanna go. They can even be fix 1 by 1 and then tested but i need to know where i wanna go, i think it's not possible just take bounch of things and then fix them randomly with out know where we are going, also change something had repercussions on other things. All is connected.

For exemple i think that touch the value of the resistences aura would had a bad repercussion for damage in game. PPl said they are op, for who? for chosen? Bo buff the same ammount, this mean that they were designed to be that way to counter aoe magic damage. and if 2/3 tank x realm have a way to buff resistences i think that i'am correct. Nerf aura will make chosen less preferable but will cause other issue, so it's not the way to go.

What i want? realm balance
how i achive that ? fixing stuff

have i to follow some way around game was build(1) or it's better keep it simple and fix at eye(2)?

1- i need to mirror things follow the original game pattern that even war dev didn't respect, so it's truly hard and i dont have completly pattern as BG/Kobs were introduced later and KOBS do not respect this patter (exemple)

2- freely change things just to keep things simple to achive some kind of better balance inside the realm but this will not make balance realm vs realm that it was the wya that game was originaly designed ( each realm have all/or similar ability other realm have).

I cannot accept the second choice so every time i suggest something i take in accout the repercussions and follow a list of fix not only 1 fix

Exemple:

if you change x you even need to change at least y or then z will became too good.

Last edited by Tesq on Thu May 28, 2015 7:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#52 » Thu May 28, 2015 6:36 pm

Do you know what could actually be awesome?? Change the Hitboxes once and for all so the Orcs dont block healers from targeting-clicking allies!! That would be a great AND NECESSARY change!!
Spoiler:

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Bozzax
Posts: 2621

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#53 » Thu May 28, 2015 6:58 pm

noisestorm wrote: Kotbs:
1) Shatter confidence should be a melee Skill. And then if you use the associated tactic, it should turn into ranged and only remove 2 enchants max.
2) Runefang and tactic locations -> Runefang should NOT be a basic tactic. It should be the highest Tactic (#11) in the Conquest path. "Slice Through" should be switched to be a basic Tactic, while moving the "Efficient Swings" to the slot where Slice Through was. In other words -> Runefang 11Pts tac, Slice Through basic tac, Efficient Swings 3Pts tac.
1) Destroy Confidence needs to be redone simply can't have a useless heal class due to a tactic
2) Stats need to be lowered or an internal CD added as it has near 100% uptime
3) No Escape should be moved to 16pts M4 (Flaw def M3 self only version)
4) +10% heal crits should be removed from DT (also leading shots)
noisestorm wrote: 1) M4 Sprout Carapace should be lowered to either 15 or 10 seconds.
2) Suppression perhaps should be changed to work similar like the Kotbs block increase. So a 10 second cd for 10 sec 10% block, or 15% parry.
1) You want to make a 16pts M4 less attractive then the core 10s reduced damage?
2) Can't add block on Chosen as it would fuel morale on block and 15% again is to low compared to 10% block (and vig)
Last edited by Bozzax on Thu May 28, 2015 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#54 » Thu May 28, 2015 7:48 pm

Box i think m3 is fine for kobs as moral3 i think is not ok it last so long when stag was nerfed and have no mirror on destru.
Should last 7 seconds and being mirrored on BG
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Bozzax
Posts: 2621

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#55 » Thu May 28, 2015 7:54 pm

16pts M4 makes sense. Compare it a bit with 16pts Whirling Geyser, 16pts Puddle of Muck, 16pts Blast of hatred, just saying

Core morale* CC is stupid and core morale* AOE CC is even worse

(*no def, no break)
Last edited by Bozzax on Thu May 28, 2015 8:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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noisestorm
Posts: 1727

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#56 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:02 pm

Well surely a 10 sec duration of Caparace would be a bit overnerfed, but 30 second definitely is too long for this one. Even 20 would be a lot, but well its a toptier morale that needs to specced, so i guess i could agree with 20 seconds :o

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Bozzax
Posts: 2621

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#57 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:26 pm

noisestorm wrote:Well surely a 10 sec duration of Caparace would be a bit overnerfed, but 30 second definitely is too long for this one. Even 20 would be a lot, but well its a toptier morale that needs to specced, so i guess i could agree with 20 seconds :o
Trying to find a reason for it being 30s. Can't find one especially as 1001/GoL sits at 10s even though they beef avoidance as well. 10-15s is definitely to low though
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Bozzax
Posts: 2621

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#58 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:20 am

noisestorm wrote: 2) Suppression perhaps should be changed to work similar like the Kotbs block increase. So a 10 second cd for 10 sec 10% block, or 15% parry.
One could argue that a more appropriate value for Sup would be +18% parry as "mirror" is +10% dodge (compare Reflexes vs Defender). Having that said I think there are multiple things that should be tuned down on KOTBs before considering such change
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Bozzax
Posts: 2621

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#59 » Fri May 29, 2015 6:25 am

noisestorm wrote: I was also thinking about the 2 Crit tactics but then again i remembered about WE morale3 :o
Your gut feeling is right. A Tank archetype shouldn't bring +20% crit to the group.

+20% attacks/+10% heal crits with 100% uptime is infinitely better then +50% for 10s Morale 3. Even more so when we factor in that there are 5 KOTBS on every WE in groups.

(Add SW Leading shots and we have +35%/+25% heal more or less 100% uptime. Heal alone is 12,5% more heals on average + heal crit procs (Absorbs, inc heal ...))
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: TheoryCraft [Tanks Balance]

Post#60 » Fri May 29, 2015 9:47 am

Bozzax wrote:
noisestorm wrote: 2) Suppression perhaps should be changed to work similar like the Kotbs block increase. So a 10 second cd for 10 sec 10% block, or 15% parry.
One could argue that a more appropriate value for Sup would be +18% parry as "mirror" is +10% dodge (compare Reflexes vs Defender). Having that said I think there are multiple things that should be tuned down on KOTBs before considering such change
em why you compare a class skill with renow skill when the SM skill buf for the 25% value and that is the correct mirror?
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