State of the Realms (A Community Discussion with the Devs)

[StormX2]

the problem is the mentality of players in general. Any Change they make, one way or the other, will be exploited in one or more ways to ruin the fun again and again.

The Million dollar answer is not simple enough to just be done, especially while so many aspects of the game are completely unchangeable with the current level of control of the existing Client/Patcher..

I am confident that a solution will come to light and over time we will be able to see Order interested in Defending Keeps, rather than feeling they are wasting time and simply buffing Destro even further by giving them a defended keep. But in reality, Destro is laughing because that Defense is in name alone.

yesterday Destro had over 140 people take a keep defended by 12. in what world can you call that an actual defense? the only time Destro died was from Oil, stragglers hunted by the same old 6 man, and the Keep Lord (which, i have to say, I am really annoyed with the current Keep Lord meta, of running him in circles around the floors....) Makes it really hard for Melee and tanks to even get contribution for hitting the keep lord.

[Rebuke]

I will tell you now that if said dev would have spoken with the more knowledgeable player group the purple bag jewel set would have never even entered the game. Again the wrong dev consulted and listened to the wrong players.

The idiots that vouched for a system where bo's gave no reward (forum warriors that never played any organized form of RvR) and the idiots the complained after said measure (pugs and solo players) are two different groups. Both groups are the wrong type of players to listen to.

This furthermore reinforces the points 2 and 4 I made two posts back.

[Luicetarro]

I will tell you now that if said dev would have spoken with the more knowledgeable player group the purple bag jewel set would have never even entered the game. Again the wrong dev consulted and listened to the wrong players.

The idiots that vouched for a system where bo's gave no reward (forum warriors that never played any organized form of RvR) and the idiots the complained after said measure (pugs and solo players) are two different groups. Both groups are the wrong type of players to listen to.

This furthermore reinforces the points 2 and 4 I made two posts back.

You were there, as 4 wbs did avoid each other to cap empty BOs for rewards, instead of fighting? For weeks? Can you blame ppl asking if there would be a way to change that?
You do, you call them idiots and assume they never played 'tha realz game!!'.

Now, two major updates later, BOs will give rewards, but only if there was a fight. So both sides combined. Tadaa, that's development.

Your choice of words does reinforce my statement of not beeing a fuzz, to use your own phrase.

[Zanilos]

Obliged to point out that my signature said "Development first, player experience second" and that was to head off complaints about necessary development changes and states impacting upon the player experience.

It did. +1. I'm not here to persecute you or drag up things to make you look bad.

I'm also curious as to how you can be treated like a mug on a free server. Please enlighten me as to the expectations you may have of a server that's in development and for which you are not charged.

Because what you do, the changes you make, the tine you put in. Mean absolutely nothing if the lakes are not populated and scenarios are not popping in popular tiers. You are essentially the face of this project. Public relations is massive when you take something like on. Or you get more videos on YouTube, you know... those ones. (this is not a threat to make one)

Honestly, it gets infuriating. If this project didn't exist, and we offered to bring it into existence on the simple condition that respect is displayed for the team, what would most of you be saying? "Yeah, great, just bring us our game back!" But because the game is here and the effort has already been put in to bring it to this state, suddenly we're "treating you like mugs".

Warhammer was a very fun, bad game. It was terrible. From the ground up. But people got used to the issues and played anyway. Then the big RvR changes came in with 1.4. https://bruglir.wordpress.com/2010/09/2 ... -rvr-pack/ People left the game. Entire guilds left the game. Then the RvR becomes a **** fest, the guilds guide the pugs, without them, no one does ****.

Makes me sick.

+1 It's almost like you're a real game dev with posts like that aimed towards customers. (yes yes customers, without us forum dwellers 'you' ((loose terms for the team)) would receive no ad revenue from this website). The money is going somewhere. Even if it's not the pockets of the guys who work the hardest.

Not even to go into the armchair critics who think that a magic wand can be waved to fix RvR for all times (or even just EU) when major components of the game are missing and we're talking about a game that was flawed enough to perish. The problem of players not being willing to play if they have to fight rather than PvDoor is not one that can be solved without some reason to care about the progress of the campaign, both on a realm and a personal level. Congratulations on having spotted that, but it's nothing new and you don't have a solution to it, just like everyone else here.

This is a people problem, it will never change. Ever. You wanna force people to take ages to take a keep? Fine, they will play something else and game grinds to a halt. Just like the start of tier 4. Want to give no rewards because its non prime time? Fine. No will do PvP in the lakes. Its a real big carrot stick issue. You have these shinies that no one knows what they are, or what they are for. So they go after them. Like I said in my post, through the path of least resistance. Empty keeps. Who gives a **** about medallions or even RR when there is a shiny Seal that people can only speculate at what its for.

Lastly, I want you to know that I am a critic. Really I am. I usually don't know exactly what is right in any given situation, but I'm pretty bob on when I call out things that are wrong. There is no fix for this game. It is what it is. You have done a decent job of getting this old piece of crap that we all love going again, so well done. So far.

None of this is personal for what it's worth.

[Eathisword]

Molly holy... So much complaining. I mean, I don't know Aza at all. I don't like him. Same with most of the team. Most of us don't know them, hence we can't like them. Doesn't freaking matter. They are making a game, to some extend ''their game'' with old WAR skins and graphics, and we are bloody free to play it or not.

I play order only, and this week was the best RvR (PvP! oups...) there has been during NA ''prime'' since the big blackout. THere were fights at keep, groups fights in the zone, solo fights, scenario popping non-stop. So thanks for them 2 last patches. Great fun.

As for general complaining about gear, PvD and such... I feel there are terrible misconceptions.
1) 99% of the renown players get will come from kills/scenario, not keep. 2) 4 out of 5 pieces of annihilator you get will come from kills, not keep [the last one you buy on AH lol]. 3) Most of your influence will come from kills, not keep. So, IMO, if you expect to cap annihilator/influence/renown by taking keeps and locking zones, you are thinking wrong about the game.

And for that, I would suggest that these RvR mechanics of keep and zone lock reward something entirely different : special skins, dyes, money, seal of uselessness, etc. The gear and renown should come from fighting and killing. Maybe this way, people would stop to ask for more bags, easier keeps to take, etc... and actually start to try and find good fights, which they wont ever get if they stay clumped up in blob of 200+ when the opposing faction has 400 AAO [edit : I have nothing against blob. Just pointing out that often they complain that they have no opposition, I would call it the PvD fallacy , when in fact, they discourage any opposition by staying clumped together...]

[Azarael]

I'll preface this with a general comment that I'm glad that things stayed civil between us.

I'm also curious as to how you can be treated like a mug on a free server. Please enlighten me as to the expectations you may have of a server that's in development and for which you are not charged.

Because what you do, the changes you make, the tine you put in. Mean absolutely nothing if the lakes are not populated and scenarios are not popping in popular tiers. You are essentially the face of this project. Public relations is massive when you take something like on. Or you get more videos on YouTube, you know... those ones. (this is not a threat to make one)

Sure. But with a system as difficult to get right as RvR is, with all its complex aspects, my problem is with being repeatedly criticised for transitional states, bearing in mind that my personal contributions to RvR have only just begun, and previous states are the product of the community in T2 and other devs in T4. There are going to be issues, for which we are going to need to come up with solutions. That's going to continue until we hit something stable, and as the ultimate task here is to control human behaviour, it's not going to be easy. I wish people would just have more understanding of that problem.

For the second part: becoming the public face of this project isn't something I ever wanted. My original aim was to ensure that RoR would not opt for conservatism and forsake class balance. Though I do not regret having the ability to shape all aspects of the game, with the consent of the rest of the staff, I do regret in some way having become a figurehead, as I am not and have never been a suitable candidate for public relations.

Honestly, it gets infuriating. If this project didn't exist, and we offered to bring it into existence on the simple condition that respect is displayed for the team, what would most of you be saying? "Yeah, great, just bring us our game back!" But because the game is here and the effort has already been put in to bring it to this state, suddenly we're "treating you like mugs".

Warhammer was a very fun, bad game. It was terrible. From the ground up. But people got used to the issues and played anyway. Then the big RvR changes came in with 1.4. https://bruglir.wordpress.com/2010/09/2 ... -rvr-pack/ People left the game. Entire guilds left the game. Then the RvR becomes a **** fest, the guilds guide the pugs, without them, no one does ****.

This feels like a bit of a non-sequitur here so I'm not sure how to respond.

Makes me sick.

+1 It's almost like you're a real game dev with posts like that aimed towards customers. (yes yes customers, without us forum dwellers 'you' ((loose terms for the team)) would receive no ad revenue from this website). The money is going somewhere. Even if it's not the pockets of the guys who work the hardest.

Yup. See my earlier comments about not being suited to being PR. I believe I'm no longer unequivocally the worst person for PR on the team, but I'm still not a friendly face as I'll tell people what I think.

Regarding the ad on the site: not my decision, troubles me somewhat, don't profit from it and can't really do anything about it.

Not even to go into the armchair critics who think that a magic wand can be waved to fix RvR for all times (or even just EU) when major components of the game are missing and we're talking about a game that was flawed enough to perish. The problem of players not being willing to play if they have to fight rather than PvDoor is not one that can be solved without some reason to care about the progress of the campaign, both on a realm and a personal level. Congratulations on having spotted that, but it's nothing new and you don't have a solution to it, just like everyone else here.

This is a people problem, it will never change. Ever. You wanna force people to take ages to take a keep? Fine, they will play something else and game grinds to a halt. Just like the start of tier 4. Want to give no rewards because its non prime time? Fine. No will do PvP in the lakes. Its a real big carrot stick issue. You have these shinies that no one knows what they are, or what they are for. So they go after them. Like I said in my post, through the path of least resistance. Empty keeps. Who gives a **** about medallions or even RR when there is a shiny Seal that people can only speculate at what its for.

Yup. Problem is I only have a carrot and a really short stick, when I need a carrot and a really big stick. See earlier commentary about not being able to implement realm-based incentives because RoR has floating realm association. The thing some are not getting is, the alternative to this approach is discarding the idea of actually earning a reward and allowing people paths to the rewards which violate the intent of the game, which is PvP. Most recent example: lock rewards from the previous T4 code causing some alliances to trick PUGs into a distraction attack on one zone while the alliance locked another zone for full rewards despite killing very few people.

I can't emphasis it enough - not doing anything about these issues, not making progress of some kind, even if it causes bad transitional states, means we might as well just give up and just have people PvDoor for max rewards all the time.

Lastly, I want you to know that I am a critic. Really I am. I usually don't know exactly what is right in any given situation, but I'm pretty bob on when I call out things that are wrong. There is no fix for this game. It is what it is. You have done a decent job of getting this old piece of crap that we all love going again, so well done. So far.

None of this is personal for what it's worth.

That I understand; you definitely are, and it is nice to hear you state that there is no fix for this game. However, I have to make the point that if there is truly no fix for this game, then everything we will do will be wrong in some way and be ripe for criticism. It's just a little unfair for players in general to be so harsh in this kind of environment.

[Dabbart]

Thanks for the thoughts and breakdowns Aza/RoR Team!

It's always great to get a read on your thoughts and what concerns you in regards to basic gameplay and such.

Personally, I love the way the Devs/GMs post in the Forums. There are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Working in Customer Service or PR of sometype is soul crushing, since regardless how polite or nice or outgoing you are, if a person is being a douche, they will continue to do so. Having the freedom to say what you actually mean is uncalculatable(is that a word?) . And, it actually gives the rest of the community a bit of insight into what actually is frowned upon, and gives room for a discussion about the issue at hand(some times).

Someone wants to rant and rage at/towards/about you guys, blast back! I know myself and the entirety of my guild ROFLs at the Dev responses... Imo, that makes it easier to hold a true discussion with people. They are aware that if they insult/demean/otherwise act like a ****, that there will be repercussions. And simply banning/silencing everyone who gets upset would do nothing to actually fix any personal issues, it would probably go the other way. If the community is aware that you are all Human Beings with thoughts and feelings just like them, maybe, just maybe, they will actually stop and try to treat you the way that they "demand" to be treated...

TLDR: As I have said numerous times. Post up any thoughts, idea's, criticism's that you have. That is the ONLY way this game can advance, with actual player insight! BUT, you MUST be prepared to receive feedback in the EXACT same tone and demeanor that you posted in. Let's all try to be just slightly less hypocritical aye?

[spacegoat]

Hi, just a couple of quick thoughts from a forum lurker:

1. Azarael, with regard to PR: I understand that none of the devs signed up for the PR job, but it might be worth finding someone who can act as a diplomatic mediator between yourselves and the players/testers. If that isn't possible, there are still a few ways in which you might help yourselves. If you (the devs) are experiencing low-morale, don't let ANY of it show. Trolls and shitposters feed off of it and will seek to further undermine both the confidence of the team and the community as a whole. It's important that the community sees that the devs are both confident and personally deriving pleasure from the game. Otherwise a domino effect starts, in which players second-guess their own enjoyment of the game: "If everyone else, including the devs, thinks the game is broken/bad/unfun - it must be! My fun was a farce all along!"

2. Remember that the forums don't represent the player/tester base as a whole. This isn't to say that feedback received here should be dismissed. Rather, it's important that you recognize that people continue to play and enjoy your game, despite its numerous flaws and irritations (I accept a certain amount of frustration in a game like this). Trust the numbers over the professional-forum-posters. Personally, I've had a great time. So much so, that I haven't had the time to come here and thank you for all of your work until now! Keep it up, you guys have achieved something really great here.

[Gobtar]

I think Dabbart really hit the nail on the head!

We are all in this together, majority of us are testers, we aren't players, we are ALPHA testers first, players second. As someone who has worked QA, it's not always fun (most of the time it isn't), we try to make sure the game will be fun in the future, but right now we are working together for a bright future.

To my fellow players: Empathy is not something that can be demanded, it is something that is shared, we aren't entitled to niceties because we are players, but a little empathy given might go a long way to avoid a toxic atmosphere, especially when the work put in by the devs already has been excessively tremendous.

Fear is often the enemy of empathy, we close ourselves off to protect ourselves. In the case of the game; fear of loss, fear it will suck, fear that somehow you are negatively impacted. However if we can push past it and address our fears we may indeed completely avoid them. This is more than just a game, this is a passion project...

A passion which many of us share.

[Aquilon]

My 2 cents. Give people max everything. Then wipe the **** out of the server when the new system is ready. You are way more likely to break **** when your making small changes and fiddling rather than changing the whole lot after testing it on your dev server.

No

And what is the reason? Do you have a secret agreement with GW to keep the whole thing as grindy as possible or they shoot you down or what?