[Implementation Feedback] RvR design

[Saccara]

not quite sure if i understand you, so correct me if i am wrong...

Zerg has strengths and weaknesses. It is to hard to lead, usually it is slow, not together in the same times.

agree. everyone who tried to lead a pug wb knows that. you can lead people to a bo or keep, but if you need to act fast there is no chance. you always loose half your wb at a bo, cause they wait for a tick cant blame them for that. with the lack of zone flipps they go for every rr they can get. sadly most of them dont realize that the zone flips creates so much more reward. but again... in the current system you have put alot of time into one flip (during prime time) which not everyone has.

here we need more points to force people into guilds/alliances. this will automaticly lead to more organisation. making siege only buyable witch a certain guild rank was a good aspect (i am right with this?). another cool feature in my opinion was the option to claim keeps, but there is no way anymore to implement this besides the rescource system.

but yeah. thats a problem players create by thereself. dont know how order side is, but on destro side we have a few good pug wb leader which do an amazing job. thx for that guyz.

the problem starts here as soon if no one of this persons is online. we saw that in a 2WB vs. 2WB situation in bc these days. the pugs only showed up when we attacked the keep and so creating an advantage for the defenders, cause of the increased cannon amount. another aspect was the fact that our keep deranked during that sieges, which forces us to stop, grab some resources and start again. well, in this time the defenders could also grad some resources...

already said in the post before... playing this new system needs more organization and people. but for now we dont have enough big guilds on both sides to play this correct. sadly we lost a good guild on destro sides because of this cannonhammer game so, this system is good on paper, but was released to early...

And the AAO for defenders.

why does everybody cry so much about AAO? more AAO means more action, more rr, more medallions, more fun...

20% or 40% is nothing. the current system becomes a problem at around 100% i think. at this point the only thing you can do is funneling. leaving a keep is to risky. if they take it the zone flips. also this few % percent for returning a rescource is to much effort to slow the attack down about 1 or 2 swings with the ram. push out and kill the ram? no chance agains all this cannons and players. even if you make it. due to the amount of enemies and the 5 star keep, they are back in few minutes. capping bos leads to nothing. you cant derank the other keep fast enough to slow their supply down.

the old system was better at this point. you could start counter attacks in other zones (if you are fast enough), you could go for bos to stop the attack, you could wipe them without get one-shooted by cannons (if you are good enough) and so on. in my opinion you could hold a zone much longer, even with 200% aao. depending on your people of course.

after that it makes no sence anymore and shouldnt be. if you cant bring numbers or you are not in the mute to defend your city then you deserve to loose. plain and simple.

And all of premades know it and like it.

what? having variable conditions and a benefit with aao? no! again, here the old system was way better. no different conditions, do buffs/debuffs for anything. plain and simple gameplay. it comes down to skill and organisation. not to the amout of numbers and weapons a side has.

if i want to attack a keep with 400% aao, why i am not able to do that? even in this situation i personally prefer to win with honor and not because of a buff. gameplay and skill should matter. but well, this times are gone. you are trapped in a resource spiral, which is dominated by the bigger numbers.

speaking of aao you should also take a look at another aspect of the new system. i know, people will hate me for that, but this roaming-sc groups become a problem now. why? lets assume you are the dominating side and you have 3 or 4 of this groups around. they show up for bos and keep fights to benefit and leave the dirty and boring resource work at the stupid rvr only players who put hours in a possible attack. in a system that has variable dmg and conditions, why should these people profit more, then the others? they just create more dmg input (by buff and cannons) if it comes down to an attack, without wasting hours of boring circle around...

The main problem of people - is organization to different structures. You can, for example, break the zerg with canons, but u can not organize each person.

agree, but is that the way you want to play? i prefer to play my class and do make some cool fights/moves with my wb instead of protecting the 2 or 3 people on the cannon. thats just boring.
also, killing the zerg becomes obsolete at a higher rr. this +1 or +3 per kill dont lead to anything. same with all this thousands of medaillons in the bank. just destroying a zerg is useless if thats the only thing to do for the whole evening.

This is gameplay for players here and Thank you for the opportunities that has a player on this server.

you mean in rvr? cant follow you in this point. forcing all people in one zone whithout the need to split inside the zone (BOs) just creates two big blobs. no tactic -> nothing. just pure zerging and a lot of frustrating and boring hours.

[bloodi]

Right now the biggest problem is we are in the no one zone.

We have both people funneling keeps and siege, yet the siege doesnt break the funnel, which was why it was implemented in the first place.

Whatever the change is, do it asap, this twilight zone of cannons and door funnels is having a toll on me.

Right now at chaos wastes their keep is rank 1, ours is rank 4, we have all bos and they can just funnel us out. This is like the worst of both system combined.

[blaqwar]

Right now the biggest problem is we are in the no one zone.

We have both people funneling keeps and siege, yet the siege doesnt break the funnel, which was why it was implemented in the first place.

Whatever the change is, do it asap, this twilight zone of cannons and door funnels is having a toll on me.

Right now at chaos wastes their keep is rank 1, ours is rank 4, we have all bos and they can just funnel us out. This is like the worst of both system combined.

From the last few days I get the impression the stalemate is a l2p issue on Order side. We outnumber Destro yet can't break their funnel, something Destro seem to have very little issue with (looking at the past few days).

Also a trend I have noticed is that even if Order outnumbers Destro by 10-20% as soon as they attack a keep the numbers become much more even. Not sure what to make of it and it's not like I've observed that trend over a longer period.

[bloodi]

Also a trend I have noticed is that even if Order outnumbers Destro by 10-20% as soon as they attack a keep the numbers become much more even. Not sure what to make of it and it's not like I've observed that trend over a longer period.

Destro, despite what most of them say, is heavy on tanks and healers, that makes much easier breaking funnels than Rdps heavy order.

I am the first who thinks and expresses often how cowardly most wb leaders are on order but the problem is still there, if we have a chokehold on the entire zone, deplete their keep to rank 1 or 0 and they just stand behind the door and aoe, is an issue, order could of course play better but that doesnt deny the fact that a problem exists when we are beating them in open orvr and suddenly when they can stack behind a wall and use los, we are unable to do anything.

[blaqwar]

Also a trend I have noticed is that even if Order outnumbers Destro by 10-20% as soon as they attack a keep the numbers become much more even. Not sure what to make of it and it's not like I've observed that trend over a longer period.

Destro, despite what most of them say, is heavy on tanks and healers, that makes much easier breaking funnels than Rdps heavy order.

I am the first who thinks and expresses often how cowardly most wb leaders are on order but the problem is still there, if we have a chokehold on the entire zone, deplete their keep to rank 1 or 0 and they just stand behind the door and aoe, is an issue, order could of course play better but that doesnt deny the fact that a problem exists when we are beating them in open orvr and suddenly when they can stack behind a wall and use los, we are unable to do anything.

So the solution is to implement a population-wide defence/attack bonus to Order to compensate for them being bad/having bad WB comps? I'm being facetious because I honestly have no idea how to fix that issue.

In my eyes all we can do is tough it out and hope Order learns in time, because if the problem is only present on one side then we can't necessarily blame the ORvR mechanics...

[bloodi]

So the solution is to implement a population-wide defence/attack bonus to Order to compensate for them being bad/having bad WB comps? I'm being facetious because I honestly have no idea how to fix that issue.

In my eyes all we can do is tough it out and hope Order learns in time.

You are being deliberately oblivious here, the problem is not order playing bad, even if they do, even order can just stand beind a wall, get enough numbers and funnel a door.

The problem is, that funneling a door is by far the best way to get rewards, the problem is that people, like before the siege changes, are simply not going to orvr till the other faction attacks their keep and then just go to the keep and funnel it, the problem is, we had siege implemented in order to curve this problem, yet currently, does nothing agaisnt, even worse, the few siege a factions is able to gather before their resources are choked out is being used as an extra way to funnel the keep.

So no, we dont need an order buff, we need to find a way to make defense and refusing fights in orvr the best way to progress and it used to be siege till people cried about it.

Personally, i would like for it to function only around keeps and to be able to break funnels hard, if you want to defend, then at least make it harder than lets gather and press our aoe skill in this general direction.

[blaqwar]

So the solution is to implement a population-wide defence/attack bonus to Order to compensate for them being bad/having bad WB comps? I'm being facetious because I honestly have no idea how to fix that issue.

In my eyes all we can do is tough it out and hope Order learns in time.

You are being deliberately oblivious here, the problem is not order playing bad, even if they do, even order can just stand beind a wall, get enough numbers and funnel a door.

The problem is, that funneling a door is by far the best way to get rewards, the problem is that people, like before the siege changes, are simply not going to orvr till the other faction attacks their keep and then just go to the keep and funnel it, the problem is, we had siege implemented in order to curve this problem, yet currently, does nothing agaisnt, even worse, the few siege a factions is able to gather before their resources are choked out is being used as an extra way to funnel the keep.

So no, we dont need an order buff, we need to find a way to make defense and refusing fights in orvr the best way to progress and it used to be siege till people cried about it.

Personally, i would like for it to function only around keeps and to be able to break funnels hard, if you want to defend, then at least make it harder than lets gather and press our aoe skill in this general direction.

I understand what you're trying to say; ORvR atm feels futile because after all the keep leveling, BO control, resource and siege weapon management you are bound to get stuck in a keep funnel that you have very little hope of breaking because both sides have access to similar tools for dealing with attackers/defenders, all of which do not reflect the actual state of battlefield control (because of whiners crying about siege being too strong, which it should be but ONLY around keeps/WCs - as you point out).

The old system encouraged zerging/xrealming instead of competitive fighting on the field but at least things moved. Sure atm we get some nice open-field action that is very competitive but the overall situation seems worse. Before keeps were taken, battlefields were conquered, pairings were locked. The current situation seems very stagnant as any definitive action towards a zone lock is met with a hard to break keep funnel.

THAT BEING SAID; Order is very very bad atm. I stand by what I said, the current ORvR system shouldn't be judged from the current situation on the server. Destro makes the system work, they defend keeps when outnumbered and take keeps when outnumbering. Order are just bashing their heads against a wall.

[bloodi]

THAT BEING SAID;[/b] Order is very very bad atm. I stand by what I said, the current ORvR system shouldn't be judged from the current situation on the server. Destro makes the system work, they defend keeps when outnumbered and take keeps when outnumbering. Order are just bashing their heads against a wall.

The situation is reversed some hours later, order keep is at rank 1, destru has it at 4 and order is just holding the door funneling.

Order is terrible yet they are able to funnel, i think we can surely judge the system, surely part of it is players fault but walls still only have 1 hole on it and people have to pass 2+warbands through it vs usually almost an equal number.

I am pretty sure the intention of the system is not to create a situation where if the sides are equal then defense wins by default, considering that they dont want us to take empty keeps.

[Buran]

2Saccara:

here we need more points to force people into guilds/alliances...
speaking of aao you should also take a look at another aspect of the new system...

agree

playing this new system needs more organization and people. but for now we dont have enough big guilds on both sides to play this correct.

...just creates two big blobs. no tactic -> nothing...

Best words
The next problem - What should we do to win, when there would be more than 150 people from each side in the same zone? I see the one of ways of solution in increasing complexity of coordination. This is the reason why different guilds join to alliances. Soon we will see the consolidation of alliances and coordination between alliances. Because it reduces but does not cancel the risks.

sadly we lost a good guild on destro sides because of this cannonhammer game

We are sad together with you. :'(

but is that the way you want to play?

My people want to get much rr from event and fun in common. As for me - I'm looking for solutions to these problems. The organization it's only the one part of them. We like good fighting. My people usually leave RvR when destruction not to come, when we at RvR. It is boring to take empty keeps like this Wednesday (16/11/16).

i prefer to play my class and do make some cool fights/moves with my wb instead of protecting the 2 or 3 people on the cannon. thats just boring.

At 19/11/16 you do this better then us, the canons is reason why we lost so much at this day, but without zerging we always would lost in this day.

you mean in rvr?

The best RvR as i see in different MMO is in the WHO. Ofcouse we like much more the version of RvR of 2 mounth ago, but we together again as a result of working this server and people who work with them. Although not all the changes like my people. But more important for us that we are together again.

[dur3al]

And your suggestions for breaking up zerg are...?

If you say nothing, I will go with a damage nerf combined with a higher CD and the following effects divided racially:

- Stagger 0s-10s or 15s depending on target count, standard immunity
- Knockback, power varies from nothing to viable depending on target count, standard immunity
- Pin, reducing speed and ranged damage taken, depending on target count

Remember that we're still waiting on the ability to add siege towers. This will never be a complete implementation until we have it.

I'm leaning more towards stagger implementations in future zerg breakup ideas - both siege-based and player-based.

As I kinda gave my feedback regarding how I'd like to see oRvR in this game, in a possible way (in my opinion):

1.0) Remove guards, keep lord, doors, posterns from a keep, they're now considered abandoned ruins for all purposes and intents;
2.0) In order to lock a zone, you require to hold all BOs for 5 minutes (something like this);
2.1) If you read my previous post, I explained how this would work, and it always gives a fair chance for the losing side to stop the high populated side.
2.2) If the low populated side always tries to zerg one BO to stop the lock you could possibly add a locking time of 2 minutes to the closest BOs to the warcamps, but no timers on the middle BOs, in order to lure the fighting always there.

Something along those lines and what I suggested in the very first page of this discussion, this way you STILL make Keeps relevant because organized warbands can still use the funnel positions, but not to grief people and hold them from locking the zone, they're still strategical and fun to play around. But can be entered by at least 3 different locations so no more funnels.

I'd say let ir roll for an entire 2 weeks and lets see all the strategies people come up with in order to benefit fully from this system.