BG buffs to be more inline with IB?

[neokingdom]

people here seem to be wanting the BG to be more Like the SM, but isn't that the BO? The Borc can do inanely well as 2h, and do insane dmg as a tank. 2h should be way more viable on BG but act more like the IB than SM.
So many acronyms......

[TenTonHammer]

people here seem to be wanting the BG to be more Like the SM, but isn't that the BO? The Borc can do inanely well as 2h, and do insane dmg as a tank. 2h should be way more viable on BG but act more like the IB than SM.
So many acronyms......

Not really

Their is no inherent advantage for a BO to go 2H ask like other 2H classes which get SOMETHING for going 2H such as CD, arcing swing, WODS rending blade etc

BO can spec no ability specifically for 2H and da big un is garbage so going 2H is mainly for style points as you actually lose out on utility and BO can already do nice damage with SnB through dps spec

[Koha]

Shield doesn't bring much avoidance to the BG. The 2H epic weapon gives more avoidance compare to the shield and stacks with parry and disrupt tactics.
The ability "None shall pass" is to high now and still has a 30 sec CD.

by the way I still wonder why SM has a triple avoidance buff that is spammable, has not cooldown, doesn't cost any mastery point and no drawback :
BG 30sec CD very high in mastery tree
BO spammable but only block buff and 40% selfsnare (pierce defence will debuff surely) very high in mastery tree (make it a free skill in Path of da toughest ?)
the way ROR manages avoidance makes this skill way over the top, RR skills + epic weapon = 80% avoidance on parry/evade/dirsupt...

Back to the topic : I was thinking of a possible improvement that would give BG more group utility and would bring more balance to the table I guess.

Why not give the GN a disrupt debuff ?

Order has a bit more ways to bypass avoidance :
BW Burn through (combined with Flashfire)
Pierce defences on Engies and SW brings dps and healers to 5% evade even if they maxed deft defender = sure rKD, works aoe procs on defense, makes coffee aswell. Only one rdps has to slot it as it will work aoe.
Slayer rampage = no parry, no block and undefendable KD while Berserk

Destro has nothing to ease the job of Sorcs, Magus or TE maraudeurs
Well Sorcs have echo of power and magus flame's kiss, but these skills doesn't help finish the job when the target recovers from a KD
SH has pierce defences aswell but they're the only one to take advantage of it, with no rKD
WE has OYK
Choppa undefendable KD while Berserk

First I was thinking that it would suit well to Furious Howl but that would make aoe bombing more powerfull.
Why not give a 15% dirupt debuff to Mind Killer or Pitiless Strike ?

Pros :
will not make GN more powerfull
will not bring more to the table then Burn Through + Flashfire or Pierce defences
still need to come melee to apply it
can be decursed

Cons :
???

[neokingdom]

Well Sorcs have echo of power

lawl. What a joke ability. Especially if you look at burn through and flashfire.... like what?

But alas, thats not the point of the post:P

[Natherul]

Of course, we run the risk of making snb BG irrelevant, but if everyone else is fine with that, then so be it. Shields are lame anyways :p

Hey man, I dont like 2H and I love shields! But then again I have always liked running tanky in all MMOs

[anarchypark]

2h BG, CD + high parry even aoe snare, now 5s KD?
put every possible things from 3 trees into one 2h build
then premade would pick BG ? idk
2h BG already have offence and defence like SM with skill re-order
my SnB + anguish def build is lost, it's fine but enough

Approach in this thread is wrong. BG and IB problems are due to relative strength of chosen/bo and kobs/sm, not problems within the class itself.

good point.
BG is not meta, so you're trying to make it a meta, to be picked up
maybe destro morale pump build is too dominant
order tanks don't have such dominant, no one stop you playing IB

I think it is important to ask why there are so few BGs out there, let alone good ones, but there are so damn many IB's and quite a few skilled ones.

it seems destro don't have enough pug activity
in order, it's not hard to join wb with whatever build, class
oath friend is not the skill ppl looking for in pug, just any tank is welcomed
destro have so many melees they can pick one best buff/debuff from each melee class
only watching 1 or 2 best skill is not healthy environment IMO

[sotora]

it seems destro don't have enough pug activity
in order, it's not hard to join wb with whatever build, class
oath friend is not the skill ppl looking for in pug, just any tank is welcomed
destro have so many melees they can pick one best buff/debuff from each melee class
only watching 1 or 2 best skill is not healthy environment IMO

You can join pug with any tank on destro too. I don't have much problems getting pug or casual groups with my BG.

What OP and most ppl talk about though it place of BG in competetive premades / WBs.

[Tesq]

I mean, it's as irrelevant as any BG, but isn't the goal to make all specs viable? Or at least, all reasonable specs? For all that tesq says SM is the 2h tank, a lot of the good ones play snb :p And for all that IB is so survivable with a shield, a lot of the good ones go 2h Because both specs are fun and viable, to one extent or another.

to answer to this and the other post, Some things are cross mirrored, Chosen dmg and type of dmg are mirrored with sm not with kobs, both are the magic dmg tank; my assumption is that both sm and BG should be the 2h tank.

All spec should be viable, but spec regard mastery not weapons selection; s+b is mandatory for pve and for that the s+b work for every tank, becaase no block/parry ignore which make less strong that difference in 10%.
The pvp gameplay is another matter.
SM is a 2h tank which work becuase it have a spamable channeling which make it durable aka if you are not durable any spec is useless.

To achive a durability in 2h still inferior to other tanks as a BG you need to put 2x toughness tactic, parry tactic and magic dmg reduction tactic. This because it allow you to focus on left and mid mastery and get most of the usefull stuff BG have.
Alternatively take not 1 tough tactic and take wounds debuff and that's all.

You have with out the defense proc t4 epic quest weapons a mediocre 2h tank. if the parry tactic would cover for dodge and the % would be higer too then 2 tactics would cover for all type of dmg: Parry/dodge and instead disrupt you would take less magical dmg that way you would have a similar from the SM onto the BG but half passive becuase all is always active and half active because meccanic make the % go up/down continously. You are forced 2h becaase how the class work ( debuffer) but you get nothing in return for loosing your self defense shield provide (hold the line) neither does for your team for base swap over to 2h so either the tank is 2h by nature or it isn't. BG is a 2h tank with out the propper tools ; sm is and in fact it get play around a lot more and is not a coincidence.

Mid path need a lot of rework Fof and none shall pass need fix due the way they are cross mirrored with kobs vigilance and armor buff. And that's another reason why BG is so bad even s+b, the mains+b path is a crap.

None shall pass is now a 13 pt skill which can be interrupt on the the worst x defense tank in game. It should be made a 10 sec buff 30 sec CD as vigilance but for some kind of reason it's still the wost skill in game x long CD. Force of fury secondary eff (which should give a secondary eff like the kobs ap regen on his armor buff ) is a crap, it max remove you 45% your chance to be crit so if you have 10% it remove you 4,5% that pretty very none existent for a secondary eff which last 10 sec over 20 of CD on a class which is GCD hungry and also give an armor buff with the currenbtly skill disposition which is 200 points in value better than a potion (660 one) which do not stack with.

The mid path still need a lot of work and the most problematic and iconic skill of IB/BG need to also be 2h friendly so the KD need to have that parry label added.

[Ninepaces]

Approach in this thread is wrong. BG and IB problems are due to relative strength of chosen/bo and kobs/sm, not problems within the class itself.

BG's have inherent problems due to the design of the class, there problems are not just that the other tanks are better. Also, one of the points of this thread is that the BG problems outweigh IB problems. Infact, IBs are a really really solid class right now. IBs have a niche role of really supporting one other player well with their oathfriend mechanic, and they do that role well. BGs currently what? are good at dueling? You never see someone looking for a BG for a group/wb, even if there are already multiple chosen.

I cant take people seriously on here when they talk about IBs having big problems, because as a destro player I routinely am on the receiving end of the beatdown IBs can deliver, while being extremely difficult to kill.

I think it is important to ask why there are so few BGs out there, let alone good ones, but there are so damn many IB's and quite a few skilled ones.

You never see ppl looking for a BG because their strengths dont outweigh morale pump while IB does NOT have to compete with morale pump on sm/kobs. bg DO have strengths. Connect to target, snare > crimson death > armor debuff (5s cd, handy if maura armor debuff gets cleansed or is on cd) > enranged beating maximizing procs into a dmg spike at the last hit of enraged beating with pitiless strike (usually the highest dmg ability at this stage not on cd) and an auto attack + maybe away cretins at the end for that extra 600. Its a good short dmg cycle with debuffs and a decent mini timestamp burst at the end. In between your burst you spam your block/parry debuff aoe and the regular aoe monstrous rending to maximize chances of 120 wound debuff + AP drain x2/crit debuff mdps. If team connects on healer you are putting heal debuff and healcritdebuff (both spammable) on the healer to give your team a real high chance to kill.



Some suggestions for BG:
-morale pump to balance them with bo/chosen, or
-non physical damage, or
-emergency ability like wall of darting steel so they can stack more offensive stats, or
-increase utility like giving them something like a low cd AOE snare and/or a knockdown with 2h, or
-something unique.

[neokingdom]

it seems destro don't have enough pug activity
in order, it's not hard to join wb with whatever build, class
oath friend is not the skill ppl looking for in pug, just any tank is welcomed

I'm not talking about pugs, and on destro, just like Order, in pugs anyone is welcome. Thats what makes it a "pug". It's a premade if people start caring about the classes in the group. Yes oathfriend on its own is not the greatest ability, but it makes the IB an amazing choice for a melee train, tank duo, just melee oriented duo of any kind. The whole argument here is that destro does not have this niche filled, giving the BG more dark protector abilties would help that, it only has 2 currently.

destro have so many melees they can pick one best buff/debuff from each melee class
only watching 1 or 2 best skill is not healthy environment IMO

Forgive me, but does Order not have the same amount of melee? And i'm not only watching 1 or 2 best skills, The point of the post is to brainstorm ideas to make the BG more desirable in premade groups, and fill in the role the IB fills in on Order. It doesnt have to be identicall, but should be similar.

No one really cares how a class preforms in a pug, balance should be designed around how it preforms in a premade.