[DISCUSSION] RVR - likes/dislikes/possible improvement?

[geraldtarrant]

Atm conversion is main problem. It should be able to convert officers <->conquerors and emblems <>medalions. That would solve most problems.

[Acidic]

I believe that a lot of the time people are reading into threads issues that aren't there. The majority of the time i do not see complaints about the effort / time used to get the medals. I have mostly seen complaints around the distribution model, That is conq medal drops on killing blow and RNG. This method causes bad feelings and is clearly reflected in the number of threads about the subject.


The keep bags system may not be the best for all but it is probably now the best for the most players after the adjustments.

[Daknallbomb]

I believe that a lot of the time people are reading into threads shushes that aren't there. The majority of the time i do not see complaints about the effort / time used to get the medals. I have mostly seen complaints around the distribution model, That is conq medal drops on killing blow and RNG. This method causes bad feelings and is clearly reflected in the number of threads about the subject.


The keep bags system may not be the best for all but it is probably now the best for the most players after the adjustments.

Iam rly not a Fan from The Rng System for zone locks But my opinion to Just dont reward locks with Bags dont has many friends. I would like Winner lock 20 Medaillons looser 10 and gg But Make genesis and purple weapons buyable with Medaillons

[Acidic]

Hi
Was reading this article on game theory and it seemed to me to sum up the current problems with the game I have

https://oakleafgames.wordpress.com

[roadkillrobin]

thats actually one of the harder tasks.

I've actually sugested a system that does this.

Can you please explain it for us aswell?

Late reply, but here is the sugestion I designed a while back.

Spoiler:

Nu(V)enons RVR system.

Imagine the basic function of RVR pretty much work like a modified version of Nordenwatch. RVR lakes pretty much becomes a point race.

The idea here is that lakes can flip by several play styles working together.This will stop the forcing of multiple warbands in one area as RVR zones are too big to just roam around as a massive blob with this system.

BO: Remove timers. To capture a BO you only need to stand in close proximity to the flag for X amount of time, (around 20 seconds should be sufficient) without any hostile players contesting the same area. (Imagine Nordenwatch cap mechanic) To prevent solo roamers 4 Champions and a Hero spawns for the realm flipping the flag as soon as it's fully captured. A flipped BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm.

Keeps: The main change from current mechanic is that a keep resets back to original owner 10 min after it has been taken. You may pick up rams anytime you like and for the sake of opportunity doors can once again be attacked by attacks that uses STR baseline. Doors are immune to Int and BS based attacks. 10min after a keep has been taken, the relevant mighty entity (Gork for Greenskin Keeps, Khaine for Elf Keeps etz)takes interest in the fight and blast the keep area for 50 000 damage to prevent any enemies from camping inside the taken keep area.
Killing an enemy keep lord will reward the attacking realm 100 000 points and subtract 10 000 points from enemy points.

Kills: Kills awards your realm 5 points and subtract 1 point from the enemy points.

Flipping the zone: The realm that first manage accumulate 500 000 points gets the win.

This mechanic can be easily tweaked for every different RVR lake so each zone can have its individual flavor. For example, one zone can have strategically placed and hard to obtain orbs that can be gathered in specific locations spread over the map that grants players buffs for when they score kills will award 50 points and subtract 10 instead. (Was thinking of something like Orbs of Molten Core in Thunder Mountain) Another zone can have the strength of Keep Lords spawning on BO’s rather then the standard Hero, while the Keeps em self is fairly easy to capture and and a much weaker lord. This would also be represented in the realm score in those zones. Such a mechanic can rewards BO’s with 50 points/second while subtracting 5 and Keeps for 50 000 points and subtracting 5000 when the keep flips. I'm pretty sure a creative game designer can come up with some interesting ways to tweak those numbers in interesting ways to make ORVR much more dynamic.

[th3gatekeeper]

Imagine the basic function of RVR pretty much work like a modified version of Nordenwatch. RVR lakes pretty much becomes a point race.

BO: Remove timers. To capture a BO you only need to stand in close proximity to the flag for X amount of time, A flipped BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm.

Keeps: The main change from current mechanic is that a keep resets back to original owner 10 min after it has been taken. You may pick up rams anytime you like and for the sake of opportunity doors can once again be attacked by attacks that uses STR baseline. Doors are immune to Int and BS based attacks. 10min after a keep has been taken, the relevant mighty entity (Gork for Greenskin Keeps, Khaine for Elf Keeps etz)takes interest in the fight and blast the keep area for 50 000 damage to prevent any enemies from camping inside the taken keep area.
Killing an enemy keep lord will reward the attacking realm 100 000 points and subtract 10 000 points from enemy points.

Kills: Kills awards your realm 5 points and subtract 1 point from the enemy points.

Flipping the zone: The realm that first manage accumulate 500 000 points gets the win.

Your idea is similar to what I had proposed a page before:

1) Develop a "points" system for each aspect of RVR.
- Holding a BO generates 1 point/sec. (modified by AAO)
- Turning in supplies, levels up the keep, but ALSO generates "points". (modified by AAO)
- Killing a Keep Lord generates say 50,000 points. (Modified by AAO)
- Kills generate points. Maybe 10 points per kill in a zone. (Modified by AAO)
- REMOVE BO lock timers.

Lets say any zone requires 100,000 to lock.

I personally dislike the "subtracts from enemy points" idea. I dont think you need to have this. I also think that modifying the gain rate by AAO is an important piece that allows 1 WB to WANT to fight against the other side's 3 WBs... because with X% AAO any point gain, kill, etc they get drastically helps level the playing field.

But we largely had the same idea. Earn points/sec for doing things in RVR lakes, that eventually leads to enough accumulation of points to lock the zone. This way it has a definite end and cannot go on forever.

You could potentially even modify the "lock other RVR lakes" function so that its based on reaching a point threshold.

The idea Viskag(th3gatekeeper) proposed seems a fairly good one. And tbh, I think many people came to the same conclusion, or at least a decent amount. Making the RvR similar to scenarios and ruin PQs is not something that has never been thought about before, I'm sure. But obviously, it has never been tried before. I think a great majority of players would agree that RvR needs changes, so why not start with those pesky BO timers and changing the loot system similar to those of PQs.

Im sure its been thought about... Maybe I am wrong... But it seems to me that mimicing SCs/PQ Ruin farm on a larger scale would be intuitive to newer players, and is the best of both worlds.

I know I would LOVE to try RVR with a design similar to what I outlined above. RVR actions earn "points" for your realm in any RVR Lake. First realm to X points flips the zone - regardless of what is held at the time of them reaching said goal.

This system provides a "role" for almost ANY player. The small casual warband, the solo players, the "6 mans" the guild warbands etc... If a player logs in and has 1-2 hours to play WAR, RVR now becomes a real option rather than being unsure to do it, because they are unsure of the amount of time they have to play. That is often the boat I am in and it limits me to only doing RVR on weekends... When I likely have more time.

[th3gatekeeper]

On our wb day, I get 20-30 medals on average, playing a tank (so if I would play on every wb day, which I don't, I would get around 70-90 medals per week). When it comes to getting medals, it really does depend on your dps, as everyone knows. In our guild we have pretty good dps players, who are usually dispersed around the groups, so everyone gets their fair share of DBs (although, the group with Leakypants tends to get the most ). And when we morale bomb, medals start flying, especially when you time them right, your group can easily get 6-7 kills, if not more.

(not writing this @ you, more using your comment quoted to further the discussion around medal earn rate)
I think the earn rate of medallions is a separate issue. I mean frankly, I think its silly that the SC weapon costs 2200 emblems (2h). At the same time we have to realize that we only have 2 carrots to chase atm.

1) gear
2) RR

So making #1 easier only further speeds up how fast players get burnt out of the game. Especially with a future "possible" RR compression...

I think making gear take FOREVER to earn is fine. it gives you something to work towards. All I would prefer is a "bag" system similar to Ruin PQs not only for the subjugator and genesis items, but ALSO the RVR sets...

If the bags contained lower currency that could be exchanged for a number of options, it would help your earn rate towards any "goal".

So it would feel more like a grind (like SCs) rather than more RNG... I think the RNG aspect is what is getting to people... not necessarily "how long" it takes, but that its a variable earn rate compounded by the current RVR troubles.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Imagine the basic function of RVR pretty much work like a modified version of Nordenwatch. RVR lakes pretty much becomes a point race.

BO: Remove timers. To capture a BO you only need to stand in close proximity to the flag for X amount of time, A flipped BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm.

Keeps: The main change from current mechanic is that a keep resets back to original owner 10 min after it has been taken. You may pick up rams anytime you like and for the sake of opportunity doors can once again be attacked by attacks that uses STR baseline. Doors are immune to Int and BS based attacks. 10min after a keep has been taken, the relevant mighty entity (Gork for Greenskin Keeps, Khaine for Elf Keeps etz)takes interest in the fight and blast the keep area for 50 000 damage to prevent any enemies from camping inside the taken keep area.
Killing an enemy keep lord will reward the attacking realm 100 000 points and subtract 10 000 points from enemy points.

Kills: Kills awards your realm 5 points and subtract 1 point from the enemy points.

Flipping the zone: The realm that first manage accumulate 500 000 points gets the win.

I personally dislike the "subtracts from enemy points" idea. I dont think you need to have this. I also think that modifying the gain rate by AAO is an important piece that allows 1 WB to WANT to fight against the other side's 3 WBs... because with X% AAO any point gain, kill, etc they get drastically helps level the playing field.

But we largely had the same idea. Earn points/sec for doing things in RVR lakes, that eventually leads to enough accumulation of points to lock the zone. This way it has a definite end and cannot go on forever.

You could potentially even modify the "lock other RVR lakes" function so that its based on reaching a point threshold rather than based on # of BOs, but thats a minor issue in the whole proposal.

I really don't like the idea of AAO having a impact on either the combat mechanic or the objective mechanics since the population in the lake is moastly based on the realm community and it can also be exploited as hell to get benefited "match" points progression. XP, Inf and Renown bonuses doesn't affect the "match" mechanics and can therefor not be exploited to "win" the game. In general the online population is fairly ballanced. If the lake is unballanced it's largly a community/player issue and shouldn't be fixed by underdog mechanics.

I added the deminishing points system as as sort of comeback mechanic and I know that the players who like to play the underdog realm tends to go for kills rather then actually playing the match of ORVR. So I added the best points to deminishing points ratio on the kills so these players actually feel included in the campain and fill a purpse for the progression.

[dansari]

+1 for the points to lock zone suggestions. Those sound really fun, especially if made different for each zone. That sounds like a larger project that would take more time to implement, but there are some really good ideas being shared here.

I, too, am completely fine with how expensive conq is currently. I want to be able to grind for it, but the consensus seems to be that implementing the shard system into orvr would be a great adjustment. Players want to feel like it was worth it for them to spend 4 hours in a zone, and with the introduction of a shard system, you increase that feeling of worth. Sure, you may not have gotten a gold bag, but maybe you got a white bag, that gave you one shard, that's either 1/3 of a belt or 1/10 of a conq chest, or however you want the ratio.

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

Imagine the basic function of RVR pretty much work like a modified version of Nordenwatch. RVR lakes pretty much becomes a point race.

BO: Remove timers. To capture a BO you only need to stand in close proximity to the flag for X amount of time, A flipped BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm.

Keeps: The main change from current mechanic is that a keep resets back to original owner 10 min after it has been taken. You may pick up rams anytime you like and for the sake of opportunity doors can once again be attacked by attacks that uses STR baseline. Doors are immune to Int and BS based attacks. 10min after a keep has been taken, the relevant mighty entity (Gork for Greenskin Keeps, Khaine for Elf Keeps etz)takes interest in the fight and blast the keep area for 50 000 damage to prevent any enemies from camping inside the taken keep area.
Killing an enemy keep lord will reward the attacking realm 100 000 points and subtract 10 000 points from enemy points.

Kills: Kills awards your realm 5 points and subtract 1 point from the enemy points.

Flipping the zone: The realm that first manage accumulate 500 000 points gets the win.

I personally dislike the "subtracts from enemy points" idea. I dont think you need to have this. I also think that modifying the gain rate by AAO is an important piece that allows 1 WB to WANT to fight against the other side's 3 WBs... because with X% AAO any point gain, kill, etc they get drastically helps level the playing field.

But we largely had the same idea. Earn points/sec for doing things in RVR lakes, that eventually leads to enough accumulation of points to lock the zone. This way it has a definite end and cannot go on forever.

You could potentially even modify the "lock other RVR lakes" function so that its based on reaching a point threshold rather than based on # of BOs, but thats a minor issue in the whole proposal.

I really don't like the idea of AAO having a impact on either the combat mechanic or the objective mechanics since the population in the lake is moastly based on the realm community and it can also be exploited as hell to get benefited "match" points progression. XP, Inf and Renown bonuses doesn't affect the "match" mechanics and can therefor not be exploited to "win" the game. In general the online population is fairly ballanced. If the lake is unballanced it's largly a community/player issue and shouldn't be fixed by underdog mechanics.

I added the deminishing points system as as sort of comeback mechanic and I know that the players who like to play the underdog realm tends to go for kills rather then actually playing the match of ORVR. So I added the best points to deminishing points ratio on the kills so these players actually feel included in the campain and fill a purpse for the progression.

I guess im not sure how it can be exploited... If 1 side has AAO, it means they are significantly outnumbered... If you have an add/subtract mechanic, it basically double dips for the winning side... You need some sort of "catch up" mechanic for the losing side, otherwise all that will happen is side A is winning with say 50k points, side B is losing with 10k and nobody wants to do anything... Generally speaking, a side that has 400% AAO for example is going to have a REALLY tough time holding BOs for very long, turning in supplies, or getting kills, so it should be a 4:1 ratio for them. So AAO is designed to not only help level the playing field, but give them reason to WANT to fight against a huge zerg...

Also to you point on "people focusing on kills" wont really work. In my proposal of 100k to lock, 10 per kill. Even if you were able to get 1000 kills, this would only be 10,000 points (10% of the way to locking the zone). So kills wont do very much towards locking in.

In reality, you will HAVE to hold BOs, as well as turn in supplies (lets say it doubles the BO point earn) and LIKELY kill the Lord to win.

If a team held 3 BOs, and supplies turned in doubled the BO earn rate of 1/sec. Meaning they were earning 6/sec AND lets say got 500 kills during the RVR lake... it would take 4.4 HOURS to lock the zone. Thats 3 BOs held 100% + supplies being run as fast as possible.

Now, if 1 side kills the keep Lord, gets 500 kills, holds 3 BOs + supplies it would take just north of 2 hours to lock a zone.

But I dont see how AAO could really be abused... players might Xrealm to get AAO, but will likely NOT be getting any BOs, and if they do, not for very long, wont get as many kills, and likely wont kill the keep lord.... So even at 4x the "earn rate" its going to be VERY difficult but not impossible to win. Thats the point. The side WITH AAO shouldnt be "ruled out" of the fight, otherwise what is the point to try and fight back?

I should add, I am not committed to the AAO idea, I just think you need some sort of "catch up" mechanic where the losing side gets an "advantage" so they are not ruled out.

What I am afraid of on your proposal, is the "double dip" that I mentioned. "BO rewards your realm 10 points/second while subtracting 1 point/second for the enemy realm."

If 1 side holds 3-4 BOs for 2 hours this will generate say 288,000 points (on your system) and will be a NEGATIVE 30k points for the other side, basically meaning they will be stuck at 0 the entire time... Nobody is going to want to fight, if they are outnumbered and already down to 0 compared to 288k... Ever been in SCs where its 300-0? What do people do? sit in spawn...

Having AAO impact the "point gain" and NOT having negative points works as a great incentive to get into the fight. On my system of 100k flips a zone, if the fight is say 80k to 20k and the 20k team has AAO, if they can fight and hold BOs for a bit (with 400% AAO) they can come back in the fight earning 4x the point gain on everything. It keeps the point race "close".

Usually the only people that like to see 400% AAO are the 6 man groups who like to pick off people during a keep defense or try and pick up stragglers outside the WB... You usually DONT see a real "defense" going on in that zone to try and fight back. I think the AAO mechanic would work VERY well at creating that "catch up" people need.

If both sides are evenly numbered, then yeah, its not going to be a catch up and the side with 80k (vs 20k) is LIKELY going to win.. but remember a Lord kill is 50k points so if they are able to get their act together and kill the Lord, its now a 70k to 80k fight... Very doable... You can also prioritize classes like WE/WH from stopping supplies being turned in, which are big point contributors as well... So there ARE many things you can do to stop 1 side from earning points and I think AAO is a perfectly fine mechanic that could aid in "balancing" RVR.