Total lack of WH versatility

[Hienzwar]

What you say is so true: attacking (alone) a destro healer in wb, guard / buffer / suppoter, it's useless and we feel it well.
Even if the goal is reached, the wh will die quickly ... very quickly, because it will have to give everything on its burst (and for burster long enough it must use almost all these survival CDs)

There you have it, you play the class wrong and now complain about the lack of results. You are not meant to attack anyone alone in a warband setting.
Nobody is. As long as the other enemy warband members pay attention, you won't be able to kill anyone solo and rightfully so.
Choices are you pick the best enemy healer and make their life as hard as possible with other ST dps in an melee assist train. In general, assist is key.
You won't die fast either, because you are supposed to have a guard tank following you, not to mention healers to watch for you.

If you don't have this, you have a bad time as anyone else. Nobody stops you from building 6mans to queue. Or 12man with 1 aoe grp and 1 st grp.

When you assist, the speed buffs will be less of an issue as well, just an idea.

This.

I was beginning to think I was the only one!

That said sure make bal ranged without flanking and 50% crit passive no issues here

[ZEDE]

What you say is so true: attacking (alone) a destro healer in wb, guard / buffer / suppoter, it's useless and we feel it well.
Even if the goal is reached, the wh will die quickly ... very quickly, because it will have to give everything on its burst (and for burster long enough it must use almost all these survival CDs)

There you have it, you play the class wrong and now complain about the lack of results. You are not meant to attack anyone alone in a warband setting.
Nobody is. As long as the other enemy warband members pay attention, you won't be able to kill anyone solo and rightfully so.
Choices are you pick the best enemy healer and make their life as hard as possible with other ST dps in an melee assist train. In general, assist is key.
You won't die fast either, because you are supposed to have a guard tank following you, not to mention healers to watch for you.

If you don't have this, you have a bad time as anyone else. Nobody stops you from building 6mans to queue. Or 12man with 1 aoe grp and 1 st grp.

When you assist, the speed buffs will be less of an issue as well, just an idea.

So you agree that a WH is not a solo assassin.
It is very contradictory ... and reveals although the role of WH is poorly defined or poorly positioned in the game.
If the perception of the role of wh by its opponents (perhaps even more in order ...) is not clear, how do you expect the players to find it?
precisely I think that the WH does not know any more how to position itself!
(and if you are happy to say that I play badly, do it, but prove to me that you are better and come by my side to give me a demonstration, please)

[ZEDE]

yeah I know, but that don't mean they are perfect in any way. They make mistakes as anyone else. The problem is that the players see them as pro devs, they are not. They are doing this for free in their
spare time. It does not mean we should not give feedback, as Zede did, about stuff we feel is bad or dont work. I use the word "amateurs" in your quote; that don't mean shitty or bad or anything like that.
It simply mean they are not professionals and we cannot expect pro work from them. Still, we and wh is kinda in a bad spot atm. Sov tier armor hurt us just like it hurt the gunmidgets and rsh. You will never flank a good player so we hit on sov armour. That means our dps is way down. Unless you go for some strange max ap penetration build.

so "dude....the devs do this all for free dont forget that" what do you really mean by that? What is the point?

A quick rectification, most if not all of the team work in their professional fields and are professionals in what they do IRL. The developers here have done skillful work that no one else was able to do or even imagine doing, otherwise you'd see more versions of the original code. Moreover, the developers here work in respectful companies, in their own countries.

The issue is that we cannot have professional careers with 8 hours shifts IRL and then, have a professional career here with another 8 hours shift, dedicated to the game everyday (development, maintenance, player support, visuals, 3D, animation, etc). This does not mean devs aren't skilled, aren't good and are amateurs. It means there are priorities to what puts food on the table, on their free time, they work on Return of Reckoning projects.

Which is a reason sometimes patches aren't released on Wednesday but on Friday, events delayed, etc. Time is the main issue, not experience, not skills.

Bottom line, we don't use all of this to deliver bad patches or incomplete work. We are really pledged to work as hard as our mind and time allow, after doing the necessary real life duties.

I understand your position, which is fair.
I do not question the involvement in time and for the whole game of the dev's.
I'm just saying that currently the Wh is forgotten in favor of more popular, more played, more efficient and above all more polivalent classes.
And it's a circle of eyes, the less popular the Wh will be, the fewer people will play it, the less feedback there will be.
Most of the time, players scale their WHs up to lvl 40 rr 80 (if they haven't given up before) to see something magic happen ... if using all of the spec points changes the game.
The Whs disappear, the character is in the closet and the players begin to move up a new class while waiting for a hypothetical change.
In the end, there are only a few lovers and staunch people left in the class.
But maybe there are statistics?
How many wh on the server?
how many are active?
Number or average of kills?
average of dps?
best dps d a wh?
moreover for the sake of transparency, it would be interesting to have all the stats of all the classes!
We would go from simple suposition to something concrete!
the players could get a hold of the statistical reality of the server (which class dies the most or the least, which class provides the most dps, which class is the most represented or the least represented ... etc)

[Sulorie]

So you agree that a WH is not a solo assassin.
It is very contradictory ... and reveals although the role of WH is poorly defined or poorly positioned in the game.
If the perception of the role of wh by its opponents (perhaps even more in order ...) is not clear, how do you expect the players to find it?
precisely I think that the WH does not know any more how to position itself!
(and if you are happy to say that I play badly, do it, but prove to me that you are better and come by my side to give me a demonstration, please)

No class is made to be played solo. Some are just better at it. Being in a group enhances every class, even those with rather strong solo specs.
When you are in a warband fight, you won't have a 1vs1 if you pick on some healer in the enemy backline, as their teammates, if paying attention, can help them.
If they have some communication, their dps can swiftly turn around and neutralize you.
I can only judge your play from what I read here and it appears to me that you see WH (and WE?) as some solo class, which should be able to score kills alone.
This is only possible in a true 1vs1, when picking the right targets.

Your class defining ability is not to single-handed kill anyone in group fights, it's the ability to engage and disengage at will. They are the best solo roaming classes, because you can get away, if things turn ugly. Others, like dps healers, have more targets to kill due to higher sustain and as rdps they take less risks but when **** hits the fan, you just vanish.

[inoeth]

from my perspective WH has to specialize too hard into something to be good at it and is then very bad at the other...

you can go for BAL/BB and kill casters easily, but then you have zero chance vs healers.
you can go for SoD/PtF and have a slight chance vs healer but then lacking too much dmg and die to them anyway or any other class that easily outdamages you
you can go for AE spec and get some utility but in return again lack of dmg

i dont have a problem with being squishy but i feel i am so much bound to one or two classes i can kill effectivly and even then there is a big chance to get killed anyway or the victim just runs away because every fkn class has several snares, stuns, kd, etc and if you lose melee range for a second there is no way to get close again.

in other games assassin classes are feared by almost every other archetype but not in warhammer... sad

[mickeye]

Most of the time, players scale their WHs up to lvl 40 rr 80 (if they haven't given up before) to see something magic happen ... if using all of the spec points changes the game.

Applies to every class. Once players get BiS equip, they usually stop playing that character, unless they have other incentives (most usually playing with friends)

How many wh on the server?
how many are active?
Number or average of kills?
average of dps?
best dps d a wh?

I do think there is a lot of WHs, most are bad, but there is definitely an abundance of WHs.

If you feel WH is lacking in some departments, you've been invited by the dev to propose a change, a suggestion how to make the class more viable. Untill then, this thread is mostly a L2P issue.

[inoeth]

So you agree that a WH is not a solo assassin.
It is very contradictory ... and reveals although the role of WH is poorly defined or poorly positioned in the game.
If the perception of the role of wh by its opponents (perhaps even more in order ...) is not clear, how do you expect the players to find it?
precisely I think that the WH does not know any more how to position itself!
(and if you are happy to say that I play badly, do it, but prove to me that you are better and come by my side to give me a demonstration, please)

No class is made to be played solo. Some are just better at it. Being in a group enhances every class, even those with rather strong solo specs.
When you are in a warband fight, you won't have a 1vs1 if you pick on some healer in the enemy backline, as their teammates, if paying attention, can help them.
If they have some communication, their dps can swiftly turn around and neutralize you.
I can only judge your play from what I read here and it appears to me that you see WH (and WE?) as some solo class, which should be able to score kills alone.
This is only possible in a true 1vs1, when picking the right targets.

Your class defining ability is not to single-handed kill anyone in group fights, it's the ability to engage and disengage at will. They are the best solo roaming classes, because you can get away, if things turn ugly. Others, like dps healers, have more targets to kill due to higher sustain and as rdps they take less risks but when **** hits the fan, you just vanish.

well no. if you attack from stealth, your stealth is down for 30s so if you get in trouble and try to vanish (if vanish is not already down because you used SoM) you are stealthed for 2s and in that time you cant get out of range or restealth.
you might say now "use DA" but in most situations you used PW before and targets are immune to CC now and the leap will again not bring you out of range. so basicly you are fked in most cases.

you seem to play just paper WAR or dont realize how stupidly powerfull every other class is.
there is a reason why there are so many WH cry threads....

[Sulorie]

well no. if you attack from stealth, your stealth is down for 30s so if you get in trouble and try to vanish (if vanish is not already down because you used SoM) you are stealthed for 2s and in that time you cant get out of range or restealth.
you might say now "use DA" but in most situations you used PW before and targets are immune to CC now and the leap will again not bring you out of range. so basicly you are fked in most cases.

you seem to play just paper WAR or dont realize how stupidly powerfull every other class is.
there is a reason why there are so many WH cry threads....

I expect you to pick a good place for ganks, where you can quickly see enemy support, with good escape routes. You shouldn't gank in the middle of chaos wastes or in front of enemy wc.
Don't use the knockdown too early.
2 seconds, them losing target and the speed buff are enough to get away, unless you picked a bad place for ganks.
Bring a 2nd WH/WE to reliably kill healers and overall finish targets in a shorter time frame, as speed is key for ganks.

Selfpunt, flee+ap pot works very well to escape, if speedbuff is on cooldown.

I seem to know, what I am talking about, let's keep it this way.

[ZEDE]

well no. if you attack from stealth, your stealth is down for 30s so if you get in trouble and try to vanish (if vanish is not already down because you used SoM) you are stealthed for 2s and in that time you cant get out of range or restealth.
you might say now "use DA" but in most situations you used PW before and targets are immune to CC now and the leap will again not bring you out of range. so basicly you are fked in most cases.

you seem to play just paper WAR or dont realize how stupidly powerfull every other class is.
there is a reason why there are so many WH cry threads....

I expect you to pick a good place for ganks, where you can quickly see enemy support, with good escape routes. You shouldn't gank in the middle of chaos wastes or in front of enemy wc.
Don't use the knockdown too early.
2 seconds, them losing target and the speed buff are enough to get away, unless you picked a bad place for ganks.
Bring a 2nd WH/WE to reliably kill healers and overall finish targets in a shorter time frame, as speed is key for ganks.

Selfpunt, flee+ap pot works very well to escape, if speedbuff is on cooldown.

I seem to know, what I am talking about, let's keep it this way.

I do not understand your approach ....
apparently you play wh ...
and you are very happy with the situation ...
and you come and explain to us that they do not change anything, that's perfect!
in short: we didn t understand anything, we have no reason to complain, and we must especially not increase the damage of the WH and not regulate the capacities of its toolbox (at least at the level of the usual targets).
please what's the name of your WH?
When to play with him?
What occasion? (solo? gank? wb? city?)
What spec?
Thank you.

[ZEDE]

@inoeth
Totally agree with you