Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

[Penril]

thats b/c mdps have actual GOOD abilites that beneifit for going 2h like choppas tired already and furthermore have tactics that ensure going 2h is not a downside

furthermore mdps detaunt like choppas is a **** joke and only lasts 5s not 10

furthermore a sm who pounce can anticipate and counter punt with resolute defense

And the assisted target could use RD as well to get away from the assist train. Add Quick Escape and Odjira procs for extra lolz.

Don't use renown abilities/pocket items/potions when trying to judge if a skill is OP. I can make most skills look OP if i use them with those tools. Besides, devs have already said they will look into renown abilities since there are several they don't like (like Trivial Blows for example). And as i pointed out, the tank is not the only one who can use RAs.

[Tesq]

you talk a lot of super punt this and super punt that

first, super punt are not a good exmple that how the game should work, everythink above a medium punt it's unfair an it would requrie a nerf

second it's not easy punt away a tank with high def, and he could use sov or renow immunities so this argument of just super punt this and that it's likely to be prove on the field with out watch at t2 experience of the moment

[Penril]

you talk a lot of super punt this and super punt that

first, super punt are not a good exmple that how the game should work, everythink above a medium punt it's unfair an it would requrie a nerf

second it's not easy punt away a tank with high def, and he could use sov or renow immunities so this argument of just super punt this and that it's likely to be prove on the field with out watch at t2 experience of the moment

It's incredibly easy to superpunt a tank. Just attack him from behind. Don't believe me? Let's do a GoE tonight. I'll get on my IB. I bet i can punt you whenever i want to. If i fail to punt you at least 3 times, i won't post in this thread again.

Once again people use renown abilities to try to make the defensive pounce look OP, even though Resolute Defense has a FIVE (5) MINUTES COOLDOWN. It can get down to TWO (2) MINUTES but it requires THIRTY (30) renown points.

Fine. Then let's remove all these abilities from the game:

- Champ challenge (with RD you can root your target but keep moving yourself)
- Run Away, Mistress of the Marsh, Eye shot and any other kiting tool (combined with Quick Escape and RD it makes it impossible to catch a kiter)
- Detaunts and Guard (with Trivial Blows and Futile Strikes, some targets are extremely hard to kill already)
- Hold the Line (Deft Defender gives enough disrupt and dodge already!)
- Cleanses (Cleansing wind removes ALL Curses, Hexes and Ailments from you! more Cleanse is just overkill!)
- Rez (Last stand lets your group go full DPS for 15 secs, and after you die you can be rezzed! Therefore, Rez should be taken out of the game!)

I can do this all day.

Funniest thing is, we don't even have renown abilities yet (and we don't know if we will have them exactly like they existed anyway).

[Tesq]

Atm you can KB a tank even most of time in front of him due to low defense so your challenge assertion it's just useless as stupid.... we are not kids....

Also i didn't try to make look op super punt vs renow /immunity skill; that's not what it's wrote up here. (but you made it by yourself fine anyway).
Also your stat ment it's wrong by the fact that you consdier a 1 vs 1.
Orvr (not sc) it's a big place. Some ppl will try to cc you sometimes. You will not always have the chance to cc with out immunities, also your attack can be block/parried.

Attack someone from behind? i guess that could happen when you inc in wrong position or ..."!!!all of your 8 tanks are not in front of your wb ...... Or do a small scale fight.
Your own post it's alredy enough to tell how much op are super punt i dont need to make a post about it hence i ask alredy it get removed from chosen/kobs. How someone would like to see it give to more tanks instead being nerf it's incredible to me.
Kobs/and chosen are the worst scenario possible super punt tactic with 10 sec CD a joke to any ppl that want a balanced game.
If there where less thing that give immunites but modest punt instead lot's of immunites and so op punts game would be better. There is nothing skill in sent 1 ppl and make him unable to play for 2+ sec. That's why stag was nerf in the first place.

All that things that ingore champion challenge are bugs.
Those def tool you mentioned such TB are not good for mdps as they are for tanks, also they do not make you durable they avoid you from get one shoot by 1.4.0 OPness, something we wont have here ( i hope at least).
Then i didn't get the point about the link between super punt and all the rest sy.

[Penril]

No one is asking for a super punt to be given to SMs/BOs! That's the reason why they were getting the defensive Pounce!

People are not trying to make Punts look OP. They are trying to make the defensive Pounce look OP, and their defense is "you can't punt a Pouncing BO because he will use RD".

On another thread you just said that Chop Fasta made Choppas inferior to Slayers because it had a 2 minute CD. Yet in this thread, somehow RD is the reason why there shouldn't be a defensive pounce even though RD has a 5 (2 at best) minute CD, and the defensive pounce has a 30 sec CD.

I challenged you because that's the best way to prove a point in a video game. We can theorycraft all day on the forums and don't reach any conclussions; a couple fights can provide much more information.

If you can't punt someone because he has immunities, you should tell the BO in your group to stop spamming his AoE KB.

Stagger was nerfed because it made a whole group of people unable to play for NINE seconds. Can't you see the difference?

[Azarael]

People are not trying to make Punts look OP. They are trying to make the defensive Pounce look OP, and their defense is "you can't punt a Pouncing BO because he will use RD".

...

I challenged you because that's the best way to prove a point in a video game. We can theorycraft all day on the forums and don't reach any conclussions; a couple fights can provide much more information.

Sadly, these are the principal problems with discussing this now. It's very easy to spin theorycraft to support any point you want. The only way to actually KNOW what the result will be is to perform actual testing.

[Tesq]

There are no difference from stagger, stagger hit 9 target and give immunites to all for a lot when was 9 seconds....(ye 9 sec with out heal suck but) but so 8 tank can super punt 8 target and with chosen/kobs 50% reduces coldown that's even worse, the result's it's the same even if less in scale, cannot play by x time. The only accettable distance it's a medium knock back.

It's not so easy indeed KB a tank but when you do that dps will go down.....take this statement, that's not the correct way to balance a game ( refer to mythic) with a all or nothing meccanic.

I'am too for test change as aza said but you cannot pretend to give BO /sm a def punt like it was a panacea.
If the problem its' super punt get rid of super punt, do not give bo/sm a 1 trick pony while after nerf super punt they could take something even better to be put in line with other tanks. Also dont know if i red bad or you fix a grammar error but i never refered at the def pounce as op, i was refered to che chance to super punt tank away with all the def tool there are in t4. Those are good way to counter cc but still get super punt away it's even in this way op when enemy party can unlash in every moment some active skill and do epic burst.

Best for me would nerf super punt to medium punt or totally remove it from ch/kobs.
It's not a core meccanic it's something extremly given for free, also if both kobs and chosen can have 1 slot more at least someone can build an original build instead copy and paste the same one.
Customization in builds it's very impossible when every thing you have to take it's alredy decided cos it's op or up.
The more a punt it's strogn mroe CD must have 10 sec CD for a super punt it's crazy super punt shoudl not be in game, BG and IB should have high with 30 sec cd, bo/sm st punt medium distance 20 sec coldown and chosen/kobs the smaller with 10 sec CD.

I refered to choppa fasta an shatter limbs cos those are an emblematic case. Hate repeat myself but; one got nerf for good reason but being those 2 counter skill born in that way they should always haf the same cd. Choppa fasta was put at2 min good or bad it was that decision , shatter limbs not. Cos it's also easier use shatter limbs due to being a general debuff and not a specific buff like choppa fasta, also it hit 9 ppl and also it's spammable with 2x slayer (please no one try to use the cleanse card cos you will never cleanse it while you have other 6 dot.

I dont need to test KB cos i played on t4 and i know well with which ration kobs punt me away BUT cos they have auto de-active knock back( even BG) i am confident that they will have no more an easy life like that cos here it's not that way.

[Penril]

There are no difference from stagger, stagger hit 9 target and give immunites to all for a lot when was 9 seconds....(ye 9 sec with out heal suck but) but so 8 tank can super punt 8 target and with chosen/kobs 50% reduces coldown that's even worse, the result's it's the same even if less in scale, cannot play by x time. The only accettable distance it's a medium knock back.

Are you really comparing ONE tank staggering several players for 9 seconds, with EIGHT tanks superpunting enemies away? Is that your reasoning for saying superpunts are OP and should be nerfed? I... i just don't know what to say...

I'am too for test change as aza said but you cannot pretend to give BO /sm a def punt like it was a panacea.

Pounce. Not Punt... POUNCE. A Defensive POUNCE. That's what BOs/SMs were getting in 1.4.9.

If the problem its' super punt get rid of super punt

Superpunts are fine, the problem was that it made the tanks that lacked it (SMs and BOs) much worse than the other ones. Think of a mDPS class without a heal debuff, or a healer without group-heal: that's how a superpunt-less tank feels.

Have you had a fight were no one was able to kill anyone? Superpunts give a small window of opportunity where you can kill someone who is out of guard range. Without it, many fights end in stalemates.

[Tesq]

-wrong spell sy, but i was refering to def pounce ( any way it's just a self punt on target spot...not like calling it def pounce instead make a difference to me)

-really for me the same fact that something make some one unable to play for x second it's something really OP, there are alredy KD to totaly disable you for x seconds.

- super punt are not k at all, you cannot say that cos Super punt are not broken as 9 sec stag was this don't make em op.
Being super punt away it's not even a little fun and compelliog, you just get ousted fromt he battle and it's also embarrassing for the game aesthetic.

[Valayare]

Can't believe I'm gonna say this but... I actually agree with penril.

Any class shouldn't be a cookie cutter between races, certain characteristics and aspects should make each respective race specific class stand out. Also, as has been said the BO and SM did/do need attention (I'm not saying when that should be done, just commenting) and the proposals from the pts are good.

To add to all the above discussion, in WFB SM are only ever 2H and most people play(ed) blocks of 2H BO's, so personally I reckon anything that promotes both a different style of play and brings characters closer to what they're "supposed" to be, can only be a good thing.