Cost of +25 talis

[wonshot]

Once again, just to highlight my big concirn here. is the unwillingness to listen to the feedback and changing direction away from pve enforcement.

Ive done Lost Vale hardmodes, its was fun. it was decent content.
https://imgur.com/a/No8tZDi
But!

Champion marks required for +25 is honestly not the issue of minmaxing to me, those +8 stats gains or whatever is not the issue. The issue is the absurd mindset of trying to falsely force Pve grind into a warcrest sink.

Speedrun quests were added as a replayability tool for those that enjoy pve, help others, and wanted their smooth runs to have an extra meaning. I dont think many or much of the community prior to champion marks implimentation asked for extra pve rewards. they asked for a little bit of extra incentive, some small degree of comparison and tracking. Speedrunning in general is when content has been figured out, defeated and overfarmed.

WHY do we want to make a farm out of content that is overfarmed in speedrun currency. To make it a chore.
Using myself again as an example, I would and will have my champions marks I dont care about this for my own sake. Ill do the gunbad and bastion hardmode acivements. But you have a very upset community lately, and this step here is adding right onto of the mindset and core issue.

Doing X amount of speedruns to get the currency to upgrade the talismans, are not adding any more content, but it sure as hell is adding a boat load of frustration and unhappiness. Going back into the dungeons, when most dont want to is not a good idea simply put. The speedrun quest, the champion marks and the hard mode content was enough on its own. You dont need to enfore it by forcing it. it can stand on its own!

Also the statement about "skill" being needed opens a big topic. You can techically get a speedrun token as a healer without having to do a single mechanic and just mash groupheal through out a BB run while your party carries you mechanically. Just because a hardmode Nkari kill is very extreme and exciting and argubly require some skill of reading+planning+coordinating+executing, Doesnt make the Champion mark a skill check as a whole.

After this patch if a new player joins the server, will this implimentation improve their WoW-like feeling of coming in wondering what pve content there is available. They already could just do the dungeons for wards. They already could do the hardmodes if they wanted the challenge. This approach of champions marks for warcrest sink, doesnt add any content it just create a grind, that the community as a whole are not interested in...

[wonshot]

As one of the only sources of statistic Im trying to count how many characters have done Lost Vale more than 12 runs (to get all 3 full sets) and after that assuming they farm it for fun, seeds, secret bosses or helping friends get geared.

I counted 170 characters with more than 12 runs.
https://maartenson.net/ror_lostvale_characters.html

Pve can stand on its own, players do play the content for rewards + enjoyment.
You..dont...have...to...force...pvpers...into...pve...any...more!

[Rubius]

OK, diving back in to respond to some more comments! (Apologies as I can't respond to every post, but will try to give updates where I can.)

I have yet to see anyone on here ask for more PvE.

To the contrary, the vast, vast, majority (myself included) only play this game for PvP.

This is a good point to bring up, so I want to start by discussing it. It's definitely true that a lot of us who have been on these forums for years are probably more PvP-aligned; PvE was historically both very basic and very broken up until the last couple of years when all the re-works started going in. (And I'll also gladly admit there's always lots of room for further improvement.)

One thing we do see a lot of, though, are people who join the discord as new users and ask: "What kind of PvE content does this game have?"

A big part of our focus on improving the PvE the last couple years has been to help give those players who want to join for a PvE experience more content, and also better content. We still don't have as much PvE content as Live did, so there's huge potential there for us to offer more for people, and in many of those cases, I think a lot of those PvE players will come to appreciate and dive into the PvP here once they see how good it is. There's few other games that do large-scale PvP as well as WAR, even decades later. This is why the team working on PvE believes really strongly in the potential for it to keep supporting the health of the game long-term.

So at 8 talisman slots per character x 3 champ marks per talisman, you’re looking at 24 speed runs to get full talismans if you’ve already unlocked the achievements and spent those marks.
24 speed runs per character…

If you've maxed out every possible achievement already, yes, this would be (mostly) accurate. The key area we've been expanding, and will continue to grow, are the special achievements, which require strong teamwork but don't generally have any time requirement beyond boss enrage.

Right now if you've done few or no Hard Mode fights, you can pull in anywhere from about 15-20 of those Marks purely from the achievements, without ever completing a speed run. This number is going to grow even higher in the future, so I wouldn't be surprised if we're soon at a state where a new character can earn every mark they need for full +25 talis simply by completing Hard Modes.

Thanks for commenting and sharing some thourghts and answering some questions.

Based on your posts here, you sound like you so firmly belive this is still the right move to make Champion marks a requirement.

That, honestly, sound like you are too invested in the idea that you become deaf to feedback.

Please know I read pretty much every post on this thread, so I do hope it's not coming off as being deaf to feedback. Even if there may be a fundamental difference of opinion in the design idea (Pure War Crest sink vs. Playing all types of content), it's something we'll continue to be listening for.

Look at the roadmap where barely a single post is possitive about T3 dungeon, or City PQs

I couldn't remember people being negative about the T3 dungeon at all, so I just checked again and didn't see almost anything there. There are a lot of generally positive comments from players noting they're excited for the entire roadmap, but I don't take any lack of T3 Dungeon comments to assume people are unhappy with us building one. (My opinion is very biased, but I think the team has done some of their best work ever on these Dungeons, and I'm excited for people to see them!)

Offtop-Imo geting chempion mark is required more skills them crests. I can join pug in rvr and crests will tick. But les likely to join dung speed run and do nothing and do it.
I imagine talismans cost is compromise around content and time investments.

Yes, you're spot-on with the line about content / time investment.

I also agree re: Crests Vs Marks. Champion's Marks require your team to work together well: you must take on the challenge and overcome it. War Crests flow in faster the better you are at the game, but it's also true that you can acquire War Crests purely for playing, even if you lose.

Some of the Champ Marks are fairly easy to get in my opinion (Gunbad especially), but we also have harder options for players that require much more skill. The plan is to keep expanding so there are even more options for players to choose from and earn these in the future.

[borc1]

most people have limited time to play and they want to spend it on pvp not pve that should be enough reason to not lock another bis thing behind pve..

[Stimpz]

One of the main reasons I haven't played for over a year now is that I have absolutely no interest in doing LV and BS but feel the need to do so, because the weapons are now some of the best for the way I play. (The other reasons are lack of PVP content and the endless blob).

I want to log in and do PvP. The best part of the game. I don't want the hassle of the whole, for me personally, unpleasant experience of doing a dungeon run before I can play PvP again. It is not uncommon that you don't have time to play anymore after you done a run and all you had was an unpleasant time and to think about that you have to do this another 3 or 4 times makes me not want to play this game for now.

I bet most people don't really care about those +25 talismans but are concerned about the steadily rising amount of PvE obligations.

[Bozzax]

Last post pretty much sums it up

This pvp game is slowly becoming a pve to win game.

[wonshot]

a)...Please know I read pretty much every post on this thread, so I do hope it's not coming off as being deaf to feedback..

b)..I couldn't remember people being negative about the T3 dungeon at all, so I just checked again and didn't see almost anything there..

My point is that no matter how many pages this topic reaches, and that fact that the wording already hasnt been "we hear this concirn and it does make us question if we should go through with this direction." gives a very strong impression of the ror team will not listen and they are set in stone about heading down thie direction. No matter what arguments, points, or the volume. And that, is 100% in your power. its just also part of the reason why the veterans are losing hope in RoR and the pve heavy focus direction. We have had these arguments before, we heard eachothers side about RvR changes being harder to make, not found the right ideas or system yet, fewer hands can code etc. And pve is easier to impliment. But this here, is a case of brute forcing pve, and refusing to hear a very unified community not agreeing.

The second part wasnt me saying there was negativity, I was making the opposit point, that there wasnt excitment. Maybe thats natural because T3 dungeon is more so for the newer players. Which is a very important aspect of keeping the ship afloat and healthily populated. But the fact that none of your exsisting guests are excited about something you work on, should maybe raise an eyebrow. Again ,this adds the the community impression that the Devs are making all of this content for themsleves and not for the visitors. And thats fine! But what illusion are we doing with suggestions forum and what do we need CMs for then (?)

It sounds like you are overly married and willing to die in this hill about champion marks, alright so be it.

[arturziomas]

Thanks for taking your time to communicate Rubius, the direction is pretty clear as much as I don't agree with it, I was hoping to have some fun chasing those talis but I guess I'll just buy them with gold, oh well.

[Lescargo]

OK, diving back in to respond to some more comments! (Apologies as I can't respond to every post, but will try to give updates where I can.)

I have yet to see anyone on here ask for more PvE.

To the contrary, the vast, vast, majority (myself included) only play this game for PvP.

This is a good point to bring up, so I want to start by discussing it. It's definitely true that a lot of us who have been on these forums for years are probably more PvP-aligned; PvE was historically both very basic and very broken up until the last couple of years when all the re-works started going in. (And I'll also gladly admit there's always lots of room for further improvement.)

One thing we do see a lot of, though, are people who join the discord as new users and ask: "What kind of PvE content does this game have?"

A big part of our focus on improving the PvE the last couple years has been to help give those players who want to join for a PvE experience more content, and also better content. We still don't have as much PvE content as Live did, so there's huge potential there for us to offer more for people, and in many of those cases, I think a lot of those PvE players will come to appreciate and dive into the PvP here once they see how good it is. There's few other games that do large-scale PvP as well as WAR, even decades later. This is why the team working on PvE believes really strongly in the potential for it to keep supporting the health of the game long-term.

So, is the current mantra to force PvE in order to attract and retain a new type of player—at the expense of the comfort of the loyal, veteran PvP player base?
Excuse me, but that is flawed logic; it is the newcomer who should adapt, not the veterans.

In fact, it's this very "dumbing down" approach that causes modern MMOs to die out so quickly—focusing efforts on new, casual players rather than well-established hardcore veterans.

Let’s not forget that Veteran and Hardcore players set the standard in these games. Constantly trying to make games more "horizontal" just ends up leading to boredom.

[wildwindblows]

This game evolve to pve never ends. İt was War before.
Community never demand more pve. Just demand balanced pvp and fun.
PVE should stay an option, not as a mandatory task.