BG buffs to be more inline with IB?

[TenTonHammer]

bg DO have strengths. Connect to target, snare > crimson death > armor debuff (5s cd, handy if maura armor debuff gets cleansed or is on cd) > enranged beating maximizing procs into a dmg spike at the last hit of enraged beating with pitiless strike (usually the highest dmg ability at this stage not on cd) and an auto attack + maybe away cretins at the end for that extra 600. Its a good short dmg cycle with debuffs and a decent mini timestamp burst at the end. In between your burst you spam your block/parry debuff aoe and the regular aoe monstrous rending to maximize chances of 120 wound debuff + AP drain x2/crit debuff mdps. If team connects on healer you are putting heal debuff and healcritdebuff (both spammable) on the healer to give your team a real high chance to kill.



Some suggestions for BG:
-morale pump to balance them with bo/chosen, or
-non physical damage, or
-emergency ability like wall of darting steel so they can stack more offensive stats, or
-increase utility like giving them something like a low cd AOE snare and/or a knockdown with 2h, or
-something unique.

Couple of things here, so your BG is using CD, which means your running a 2H tank which means that the overall durability of your party is weakens compared to if you were running 2 SnB tanks

Next sure you can snare them with WoS, which means your BG specd into loathing which means you can't get: undetaunt, soul killer, choking fury or elite training:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

Now you could use WoS or you can just use a BO with it's 5s cd AoE basically uncleanseable snare

Now you could use Bg with it's 5s cd armor debuff or you could use Bo's no cd armor debuff that has a higher debuff value than Bg at all levels bar 100 hate which you really won't have that pretend if your spam in out CD, furious howl, pitiless stike etc

Next enraged beating vs THC I'd say the latter is superior due to GS and SYG tactics, has no ap cost and can buff your group with stolen stats

Now I don't know about you but I don't think blowing m2 for a quick 600 dmg is a good idea, it's a waste of a CC, and a waste of morale better served for cc with champs chalk or m1 cleanse or bellow/ armor of servitude m3 or ID m4 the latter 3 of which are important considering how squishy you are as. 2h tank even with parry tactic

The nature of small scale/ 6 man engagements; as that is what I'm assuming your referring to and not oRvR, is focussing targets so even if your spamming CD and FH and debuffing wounds on multiple targets it doesn't matter since you are not really attacking multiple targets at once so aoe debuffing is not something that be fully taken advantage of.


Stuff like hdebuff, ap increasers and all that you can't put becuase you went for snare while Bo's can still get ap drains and single target cd increasers and silences in it's build


I don't want to see any more morale pumps on destro, the stuff is crazy strong and destro already has enough classes with access to the stuff

[anarchypark]

Spoiler:

it seems destro don't have enough pug activity
in order, it's not hard to join wb with whatever build, class
oath friend is not the skill ppl looking for in pug, just any tank is welcomed

I'm not talking about pugs, and on destro, just like Order, in pugs anyone is welcome. Thats what makes it a "pug". It's a premade if people start caring about the classes in the group. Yes oathfriend on its own is not the greatest ability, but it makes the IB an amazing choice for a melee train, tank duo, just melee oriented duo of any kind. The whole argument here is that destro does not have this niche filled, giving the BG more dark protector abilties would help that, it only has 2 currently.

destro have so many melees they can pick one best buff/debuff from each melee class
only watching 1 or 2 best skill is not healthy environment IMO

Forgive me, but does Order not have the same amount of melee? And i'm not only watching 1 or 2 best skills, The point of the post is to brainstorm ideas to make the BG more desirable in premade groups, and fill in the role the IB fills in on Order. It doesnt have to be identicall, but should be similar.

No one really cares how a class preforms in a pug, balance should be designed around how it preforms in a premade.

yes my post was limited in pug perspective
let's see premade, about tanks
6man is kinda /assist battle, kill target asap in offensive, in defensive it's about cc ( healer aside )
so you are tailoring group, who have best armor debuff, best wound debuff and best something
1 skill from this class, another one from that class, put it in same time stamp(assist), kill target in 5sec
it's good strategy no doubt
but in BG, it seems you don't have the best something, instead this little, that little all around
and you found 5s KD, the best KD and pushing it into CD build, 2h parry 5s KD
i'm afraid this suggestion would make only 1 build of BG
which will never overcome morale pump

and problem of premade view is there are little room for deftard tank
6man ignore him, punt him and it's end. so they tend to cast aside in balancing discuss except morale pump
deftard tank have good role in orvr. front liner facing multiple enemies, pushing or decoying etc
1 vs X makes number advantage even for few sec, sometimes that's enough for win
well.. it's pug view again, premade wb might not care such things, it's 6man x4 plus morale bomb

my point is, a little bit of pug orvr view would not hurt balancing discussion
SM and BG are considered selfish tank afaik
it means their efforts are going into themselves, making them slightly more tanky
with that they can push little harder than others, until premade bomb eat them
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... :;0:0:0:0:
40/40 with full ruin, backline harassing
maybe you're too focusing in 2h wannabe SM

i annoyed you guys enough without solution
i still think problem is other 2 tanks and morale meta

[Ninepaces]

If u stat optimize you won't have a problem with 2h durability. Wasn't referring to WoS just reg snare. Bo snare superior obviously. Bg armor debuff is like 1200? I can't remember. With eb hats never really goes below 75. M2 dump is fine if team just needs that little bit. Enraged beating more hits so more procs. Aoe fir wounds debuff is so when u switch targets the target already has high chance of already wound debuffed, not proccing it when he's already 50%.

Left tree to cd and right tree to the good stuff. It worked ok, I think the best the class could do. I made my Bg when highest rr was 50 and by the time someone hit 52 I was at 58 when I deleted last month.

@tth

[Natherul]

moved topic, use this topic as a breeding ground for ideas for balance discussion proposals in regards to BG.

[analoghermit]

Would slapping a splash effect for Pitiless Strike and Horrific Wound on Hastened Doom be too OP (or even sensible)? Values could be lower so the Mara ST versions remain superior.
But BGs could now flourish as AE debuffers plus they'd get the longest tactic in the game.

[Morf]

There is no doubt IB's are better then BG's however bg's can deal more damage then ib's and can be harder to kill, IB's are just better all rounders and have better organised mastery paths where its easier to get everything you need from 2 paths where as bg's have stuff mixed between all 3.
To have high damage as a bg you will be fairly squishy and to be super def you will deal little to no damage, IB's can maintain a solid defense and solid damage at the same time.

Imo i dont think BG needs much at all, if it were up to me i would change efficient slaughter tactic to be BG's 2h kd, something like "Spiteful slam no longer requires you to block and the duration of spiteful slam will be 3 seconds", so you have a kd that is reliable, wont be an op 5 secs in dps mode and doesnt force you to go snb.

[peterthepan3]

Thing is even with a 2h KD, there's still no reason to bring it over a DPS SNB BO: you need an aoe snare from either the BG or the BO, but the BO's version happens to be in its optimal DPS spec anyway - and is 10x better. Also the morale pump.

Though I think baby steps would be the best way to approach it, and perhaps start off with a 2h KD, though I'd keep the 5sec KD for SNB so that SNB BG still has its place, and give BoR a 3 sec KD component.

[Morf]

Thing is even with a 2h KD, there's still no reason to bring it over a DPS SNB BO: you need an aoe snare from either the BG or the BO, but the BO's version happens to be in its optimal DPS spec anyway - and is 10x better. Also the morale pump.

Though I think baby steps would be the best way to approach it, and perhaps start off with a 2h KD, though I'd keep the 5sec KD for SNB so that SNB BG still has its place, and give BoR a 3 sec KD component.

You are right, i tend to think if BG is buffed to a state where it rivals a BO or even a chosen then it would likely be op.
For me as u said baby steps, slight changes/buffs so players who do prefer BG's for whatever reason that might be dont feel like they are shafting there group so much by taking the spot of what could be a bo or chosen.

[peterthepan3]

Thing is even with a 2h KD, there's still no reason to bring it over a DPS SNB BO: you need an aoe snare from either the BG or the BO, but the BO's version happens to be in its optimal DPS spec anyway - and is 10x better. Also the morale pump.

Though I think baby steps would be the best way to approach it, and perhaps start off with a 2h KD, though I'd keep the 5sec KD for SNB so that SNB BG still has its place, and give BoR a 3 sec KD component.

You are right, i tend to think if BG is buffed to a state where it rivals a BO or even a chosen then it would likely be op.
For me as u said baby steps, slight changes/buffs so players who do prefer BG's for whatever reason that might be dont feel like they are shafting there group so much by taking the spot of what could be a bo or chosen.

agreed. #AllTanklivesMatter =D

[Tesq]

-the aoe/2h build:
is fine for rvr; it's a force multipler for everyone and buff less the party : aoe crit debuff, aoe defense debuff (maybe miss a debuff for dodge/disrupt too instead just block/parry), aoe wounds debuff, aoe snare + st utilities all on enemies

it's just lack some durability in 2h due the interation between the meccanic cost overall for use utility and the defensive value required to be durable.

aka 30% tactic is likely 90% time be 20% which is inferior to all other parry buff of 25% and is not even fully avaiable when the battle start (same goes for toughness tactic which also require an investiment in toughness not so low).
As 2h also miss any defense exept armor/toughness vs projectile; generally speakign BG have 2 avopidance tactic for 2/3 type of dmg dodge is missing and 2/3 rdps are physical. Parry tactics should also cover for that and all should give at max 40-45% not 30 as explained due the meccanic up/down.

-the ST/2h build:
miss the st KD and it have problems of global coldown economy too many things to do all togheter with target swap+ durability problem as above

-the ST/s+b build:
as above + have problem of utility becauase loosing 2h inner ignore mean miss more, also most of his utility are not need; a CD increase from a st choppa or choppa/we out heal debuff can cover for his heal debuff; detaunt is usefull only until you have to face guard and if you focus more on spam murderous wrath (which is what mix well with wounds debuff + offensive st burst for exemple instead)
S+b skill such none shall pass need a rewamp. Compare it with BO/SM channeling and you''ll get that 1 interrupt **** your 30 sec CD 13 pt skill. This build is all about how bad is third path becuase the middle is mandatory for base avoidance and tank tool(and in fact BG dosen not shine both in 2h/s+b for durability), the third mastery also get redundancy for healers ( both dok/rune for ap regen) and the only real good tool is the ap drain (but alone is not enough due to target swap pause and ap regen from enemy rp; you usually need ap consume from you're other skill and a chosen ap drain to make it worth.
Soul killer is a tactic that you whish it could be granted for free as it "may" make you a bit better and give you a niche/disturb/assist role but force you to leave home something in return which you usually dont want when other classes such choppa/we get it with out loose a precious tactic. The KD is still bad becuase parry would would make it more easier to have it avaiable and so ye kinda still need parry label to make that KD worth even if it would be restricted to s+b anyway after the change.


all in all the real strengh of the BG always avaiable with any configuration are:
- the st crit reduction (not sure if it's general but if it is reduce 20% chance to heal crit or offensive crit is a always a good tool to use onto enemy---> hate up/down and CD make it less efficent tought).
-the KB, even in RVR to peel onto your blob/lines (20 sec KD make it innefficent 15 would be better)
-special mention the ap drain from third path

and that's all , just 3 skill are you're base value