Why do people hate on melee DoK/WP so much? (opinions wanted)

[Charon]

Realize the reasons for this may be personal or private, I apologize, but I feel I missed something here. What happened to make you change your mind so drastically on these issues? If you don't wish to share, I understand.

Most people probably won't care, so spoiler below.

Spoiler:

The project lost almost all of its meaning for me in mid-December, because this was the point at which the major components of my drive to work on it were lost.

I derive satisfaction and worth from the improvement of a flawed design, and from the polishing of a rough gem into something approaching a diamond. The design, however, must demonstrate potential to become great. I realized in late November and early December that I would be unable to solve the problems with the core concepts of RvR and vertical gear progression/balance, which made playing the game such anathema to me. At that point, this element of the drive I had died - I could no longer respect the game.

As a result, I'm not willing to put major effort into refining small concepts, like melee healing, which generate a ton of controversy and complaint both inside the team and outside of it, for a game that is in my opinion very deeply flawed. It's not worth the effort and that pushback is certainly something I can't handle any more.

I also, for quite personal reasons, need to feel as though I'm making personal progress from the work that I do, and increase my own perceived worth. It was made clear to me by one of the later posters in a topic from that time that not only would solving the problems of RoR fail to benefit me in this way, as there would be no wider respect for this and it would be irrelevant in the future, but that my own apparent need to serve as some kind of messiah that the game ultimately did not need was causing discontent within the playerbase. I was accomplishing the opposite effect to what I had intended. Not only that, but time spent thinking about game design is time not spent thinking about or writing code, which is the only valuable thing I would take away from here. These realizations deter me further from contributing any modifications.

Those who have observed me likely harbour suspicions that something isn't quite right with me. I used to have very high uptime on the project and a passion that went beyond what might be expected for a project like this. This is because I've been using this project as an escape from some personal issues in reality. I won't go into them, but part of the problem is that I cannot allow myself to fail. This powers my usual stubbornness and relentlessness in attacking a problem, and my passionate defenses of my positions and viewpoints. However, I failed where it counted most - in RvR and on balance - and unlike past failures, I failed in a very permanent way. There is nothing I can do to fix this game.

As you have seen from the changelogs, I make very, very limited contributions now. The loss of this project as an outlet combined with some other RL circumstances have led to me not being able to concentrate on doing even the smallest things for the project, let alone engaging with the community in the manner that I once did. I hold my rank both because I occasionally post to confirm internal workings and mechanics of the emulator, and because I hold the idea that in the future, I may be able to reconcile these issues and contribute to the project again, in the pure role of a developer rather than a designer or player. But given the state of things at the moment, that could be a long time in coming.

I apologise if some find this explanation overdetailed to the point of arrogance, but I guess I feel it's appropriate for me to set things out like this because of the presence I formerly was.

Outside of my own situation, I have recommended to the other members of the team that they drop the melee/casted hybrid healing concept because it is too difficult to make work in a game that does not have state stabilization. I would have struggled to make it work if the game were locked to one state, and even then, it would only have worked in scenarios. I stand by my assertion that it is unworkable in a state-unstable game.

For me this statment is huge disapointment. For past few weeks i have been preparing my WP to planed class rework into melee class healer. I completed dominator set etc. Now its seems like waste of my time and effort. I think i will leave WP for now and maybe even leave RoR for some time becasue WP is only class which i am realy interesting.

This is why i advice to move Az statment to separate thread where devs could make clarification about futher classes balance aprouch.

Personaly i think ab. mode for WP was moving class in right direction. Armor decrease for back line healer was not neccessery and i would suggest lowering buffs from other two auras (respectively 50 % of willpower dmg bonus with PoD and only 25% dmg bost from PoD) but it was it.

In such situation If devs decide to improve tactics like Leading the Prayer (to 35 % chances of PoD aplication for Great Wepon), Endless Guilt (by adding curse parameter to other WP skils and proc from Dominator set) and give Greave of Sigmar tactic ability to stack with dominator toughnes debuff i would be in WP's heaven.

[Ugle]

Removing inherent bonus strikethrough on lifetaps would be a good start at ab. ex balance

[Charon]

Removing inherent bonus strikethrough on lifetaps would be a good start at ab. ex balance

Removing completly maybe not but decreasing to 10% it could be optional i think

[Arteker616]

Shaman/AM are just overperforming atm; it's not so much that DOK/WP are weak. Anyone saying so just wants to revert them back to the hurr durr OP status they've enjoyed for years. Having said that, I do feel that Shaman/AM changes ought to be, at least, revisited/turned off for a bit, if the balance forums/balancing in general is going to be off the radar for the foreseeable future.

if this happen , imo engi magus changes should go aswell

Difference being that one of these sets of changes are vastly overperforming in the eyes of a lot of competent players, whereas the other set has allowed classes in question to become somewhat viable - not overly viable.

Is fine most competent players agree the changes of magus , engis are overperforming . specially when it comes for the magus side. the most common denomiator agaisnt the new changes are not even the healing factor am , shaman can do but order in general cry about shaman run away and autodetaunt racial tactic, wich we could use in the case of a racial tactic flame war .

In other hand alot of competentent player change views on class when they face them in the other side of the field and suddenly its op.

[peterthepan3]

if this happen , imo engi magus changes should go aswell

Difference being that one of these sets of changes are vastly overperforming in the eyes of a lot of competent players, whereas the other set has allowed classes in question to become somewhat viable - not overly viable.

Is fine most competent players agree the changes of magus , engis are overperforming . specially when it comes for the magus side. the most common denomiator agaisnt the new changes are not even the healing factor am , shaman can do but order in general cry about shaman run away and autodetaunt racial tactic, wich we could use in the case of a racial tactic flame war .

In other hand alot of competentent player change views on class when they face them in the other side of the field and suddenly its op.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that honestly feels the Magus is overperforming in a non-pug environment. I don't want to go offtopic.

[Telen]

Except for the range on bolt there isnt anything broken with magus. You still use abilities in a general rotation as they were meant to be used. Its the powered aoe lifetaps being used as part of a spamable heal rotation instead of an emergency heal or something you work towards like balance druid thats the issue with am.

[Arteker616]

Difference being that one of these sets of changes are vastly overperforming in the eyes of a lot of competent players, whereas the other set has allowed classes in question to become somewhat viable - not overly viable.

Is fine most competent players agree the changes of magus , engis are overperforming . specially when it comes for the magus side. the most common denomiator agaisnt the new changes are not even the healing factor am , shaman can do but order in general cry about shaman run away and autodetaunt racial tactic, wich we could use in the case of a racial tactic flame war .

In other hand alot of competentent player change views on class when they face them in the other side of the field and suddenly its op.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that honestly feels the Magus is overperforming in a non-pug environment. I don't want to go offtopic.

would be surprised about that, u went anywas offtopic by bringin the am, shaman to a dok wp hate threat anyway.

[Arteker616]

Except for the range on bolt there isnt anything broken with magus. You still use abilities in a general rotation as they were meant to be used. Its the powered aoe lifetaps being used as part of a spamable heal rotation instead of an emergency heal or something you work towards like balance druid thats the issue with am.

80 feet lifetap , heavy ap drain , wich in order isnt that hard to fixt but in Destru is way more serious issue.

Except , magus lacks ranged AA, has worse rotation than engi , group utility ,worse pets , and in general alot of class balances engi doesnt .

[adei]

This topic really shifted away from its intent, this aint no magus thread, lets try and stay on target.

[Stmichael1989]

I understand the burnout all too well, Az. Especially when you consider this is a volunteer project that you still don't have full control or understanding of.

I'd ask that you pass the torch so that the work to make classes fun and balanced doesn't grind to a halt, but even getting someone up to speed on everything is a tall order.

I won't lie though, this confession kills a lot of my interest in the project. Class archetypes like melee healing WP are the reason I play. Knowing that they're going to be abandoned, there's no drive to keep playing.

Maybe I'll check back in a year or two to see if there's been a breakthrough. In the mean time, good luck.