[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[th3gatekeeper]

The reaon why you stack Wounds in RVR is coz of morales. No other reason. I would spec for armor if it weren't for morales. Then Crit reduction.

I don't agree with Az at all on this point. Armor was an issue on live due to gear allowing it to go way over what was healthy aswell as Trivial Blows keeping crit in check.
On RoR we don't have those armor numbers and we don't have Trivial Blows and we see what happens without it. Melee train killing people in 2 GCD in small scale. CC and dead. Thats basicly like not allowing people to play. the game and that by far more boring then longer TTK. Burst dmg is totally out of controll.

I would be completly on board on allowing 75% magic dmg caps if Willpower would be used as a Magic dmg pen btw.

Yes, and there is already a large "morale nerf" thread going on, and frankly, I think it would be a positive for the game to see this.. Which means you would then be stacking armor/crit reduction?

Melee train cant kill people in 2 GCD UNLESS that target is not being guarded. If you have a tank nearby, who uses Challenge + guards, a melee train will not drop someone in 2 GCD... Unless your talking a warband melee train in which then maybe... because youll have mass scale coordination which frankly has less to do with combat/game design and more about sheer volume of numbers.

But that is a problem in ANY game. If you allowed for people to not die in 2 GCD with 20+ people targeting that person (without some sort of population scaler) then people would NEVER die in 1v1s or SCs. Everyone would largely be unkillable.

In fact. I would wager even if they doubled the value of toughness/Ini/Wounds you would still see people dropping in a few GCDs in RVR but now you completely un-killable SCs because nobody would ever die. This is what happened in the previous game I played: Neverwinter. They gave every class self-healing, increased every classes HP pools etc. and you would literally see ZERO deaths in PVP games - Domination. Games would end throguh a VERY grueling/painful LONG trade of "nodes".... Which lead a large population to quit.

So I still go back to - balancing around SCs, then Field of Glory giving you, the "increased TTK" because even if you were to see solo roaming (which a LOT of people like) but increased TTK by a large enough factor to mitigate or alleviate "people dying in 1-2 GCDs" then roaming/solo wouldnt be a thing anymore. All you end up doing is allienating tons of player base (solo roamers/SCs) in favor of what? Mass scale RVR?

Also, i think we agree on this. I dont see much PHYSICAL burst damage that is out of control... Where a majority of burst comes from is non phys damage - like a BW/Sorc as a perfect example.

[th3gatekeeper]

I had 1k-ish toughness on live worked much better then armor (dok)

Ok, this is cool and all, but this addresses nothing.

it takes you 1k worth of stats to get to 1k toughness right?

If you drank armor pot (which you can still drink toughness pot) + 2200 base armor + how many talis?

Lets say you had 6 +150 armor talis. This takes the place of maybe +22 toughness talis?

So assuming you got 1k tough. You could STILL get 868 toughness AND still have nearly 4k armor....

So I dont see how this does anything or adds anything to this conversation. Plus I get for those Talis (6) you would have a MUCH better return on tankiness using them for armor rather than having ~132 more toughness...

This type of thing just proves your insincereroty here... Acting as if you can get 1k toughness VERSUS stacking armor... They are not mutually exclusive stats... In many cases.

More is more and yes every tally was +toughness and yes I replaced +150 armor tallies to improve my def

Hint toughness is even better on ror I suggest you try it out

I have a 1k Toughness BG atm. I know its tanky. going toughness talis is simply not as good a return. Period. Its not opinion, its math. Im sorry. You can mitigate players damage SO much and they cant do anything about it.

Toughness is ROUGHLY a 1:1 reducer of primary damage stat (its better but for rough numbers its close).

ON many classes (ive tested) youll see about a 15 STR = 1% increase in damage.

So 130 toughness will reduce their damage by AROUND 10%.
Where as armor can cut it in HALF (50%).

Last I checked. 50% > 10%.

[Bozzax]

Reduces 4/5 damage types compared to1/5 of the damage types (physical) and it isn't 100% ignored by 1/4 of the Physdps classes.

Far from so inferior as you pretend, imo much more reliable = better

All avoidance is better, wounds is better (5/5), toughness is better (4/5) even a bit of ini to avoid nasty crits/on crit procs is better.

Weapon skill, willpower and ini (above +80 or so) are under perfoming from a def perspective since everybody worth mentioning will have 1000+ in off stat.

[th3gatekeeper]

Reduces 4/5 damage types compared to1/5 of the damage types (physical) and it isn't 100% ignored by 1/4 of the Physdps classes.

Far from so inferior as you pretend, imo much more reliable = better

All avoidance is better, wounds is better (5/5), toughness is better (4/5) even a bit of ini to avoid nasty crits/on crit procs is better.

Weapon skill, willpower and ini (above +80 or so) are under perfoming from a def perspective since everybody worth mentioning will have 1000+ in off stat.

This is largely misleading...

1/5 damage types - yes.. But what % of "all damage" is physical versus other damage types... I would say (just rough math) at MINIMUM 2/3rds of all damage is physical where as maybe the other 1/3rd is non-physical. At BEST it cant be more than 50-50 split. So trying to paint it as "1/5 or 20% of damage" is very misleading.

Wounds isnt BAD, toughness isnt BAD, but there is a reason you see many roaming 6 man groups slotting things like armor talis and LESS roaming around in things like toughness - with the exception of maybe already high armor classes who dont get focused much (like tanks) who you will see with maybe 1-2 armor talis at most, and going for toughness after that. I see healers all the time rocking armor talis and pushing 4k+ armor. Why? because its superior. Shutting down or cutting in half - ~50%+ of all damage in the game... its pretty damn good. Especially when it only "costs" you ~100 of a stat to do....

This isnt even worth posting here anymore... Facts/Logic/Math is all in this thread. People can make their own conclusions.

[Bozzax]

Go to your tank check what classes has killed you the most times or on any class you play for that matter

Ever heard proc meta?

Seriously no more mr excel

[Dabbart]

Agree with Bozzax.

Armor is great and all. Versus physical damage that doesn't negate armor. Or when facing crazy armor debuffs.

I find stacking toughness/wounds far superior. I like to keep armor at 2400 on cloths, 6k wounds, <5% chance to be crit, capped resistances and anything else would be on toughness. Stacking armor as a non-tank means you are probably missing some other type of defense.

Again toughness is not dependant upon your main attack stat. If you have 1k toughness and your attacker has 600 str, you negate the full 1k worth of toughness. From every non-morale source of damage.

Gatekeeper, you use weird math sometimes. Toughness does not reduce damage by %s. It reduces by a static number. Armor reduces by a %, so vs. very high damage attacks the armor would be better, vs lots of smaller attacks toughness is superior. Vs any form of armor mitigating attack toughness is 1billion% better, since the armor does nothing. You need to stop trying to turn static numbers into %s. That % varies based upon far too many variables. I understand you are trying to compare to armor, but you need to compare vs similar attacks. Not to mention Toughness is counted FIRST, before crit damage or armor. So having a higher toughness will lower damage taken by more than a 1-1.

Source:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=879

the way damage is calculated, general points:
Damage appears to be calculated in sequence, starting with tooltip damage (if using abilities) which then gains a dps contribution from weapons (or not in the case of most magic abilities) and then gains stat contribution. this total is then mitigated by armour or resistances.

mitigation from toughness is calculated during the stat contribution part of the formula.

damage bonus and reduced damage are calculated from the base damage and the ATTACKING stat contribution, but before toughness is applied.

critical damage is calculated after toughness is applied but before mitigation from armour or resistances.

all bonuses to damage (base or critical) are additive.

all reduction to damage (base or critical) is multiplicative.

stats are divided by 5 for abilities, and 10 for auto attacks.

dps contribution differs depending on duelwield or single weapon.

duelwield dps contribution is: <mainhand dps> + <offhand dps> * 0.45

single weapon dps contribution is: <mainhand dps>


so a breakdown of the formula would look like this:
((<tooltip> + <dps contribution>)+(<stat coefficient>*(<offensive stat>+<power stat>)/5))*(1+<damage bonus>)*(1-<damage reduction>)-(<stat coefficient>*(<toughness>+fortitude>)/5) = <damage>

<damage>*(1+((0.5+<crit damage bonus>)*(1-<crit damage reduction>))) = <crit damage>

<damage> OR <crit damage> * (1-<mitigation from armour or resistances>) = <final damage>

[spikespiegel84]

When you have a healer with 3,5 armor, a good tank that does his job properly with guard, challenge, cc and taunt, you can focus all you want, he simply won't get down. I literally saw healers jumped by two WH/WE, detaunting and laugh. We talking about skilled players. The whole concept of give pressure to a healer is simply Sci fi in T4, at the point that is easier to focus a mdps rather than a healer. Just my experience, though.

[Eigar]

When you have a healer with 3,5 armor, a good tank that does his job properly with guard, challenge, cc and taunt, you can focus all you want, he simply won't get down. I literally saw healers jumped by two WH/WE, detaunting and laugh. We talking about skilled players. The whole concept of give pressure to a healer is simply Sci fi in T4, at the point that is easier to focus a mdps rather than a healer. Just my experience, though.

TBH most tanks are easier to down than mdps currently.

[ragafury]

When you have a healer with 3,5 armor, a good tank that does his job properly with guard, challenge, cc and taunt, you can focus all you want, he simply won't get down. I literally saw healers jumped by two WH/WE, detaunting and laugh. We talking about skilled players. The whole concept of give pressure to a healer is simply Sci fi in T4, at the point that is easier to focus a mdps rather than a healer. Just my experience, though.

If you are missing the tools in your setup to deal with a healer quick, yes than it's much easier.

[Cimba]

Note to myself: Don't argue on the internet, it won't lead to anything.

It was shown that armor stacking can be pretty good under certain circumstances. These circumstances are e.g. no armor ignore is involved. Which at least for order is quite a stretch since marauders are part of more or less every destro group.

Popular opinion seems to be that armor is overperforming. While this might be true in respect to the other defensive options it seems to be necessary to survive. Looking at SCs or 6on6 shows that physical damage dealer dominate even though armor is supposedly overperforming. At least on an organized level.

The proposed solution might look interesting for low levels of armor penetration. However MDPS can stack armor penetration way beyond 50%. To have any kind of physical mitigation a player would need more than 50% armor mitigation. This is equal to 2,2k armor. Assuming an armor debuff this would need to be 3,6k. I'm not entirely sure if a cloth armor class can reach that value. Mabye if he goes full retard on armor stacking.

In essence with the help of armor debuffs classes like choppa/slayer, who can easily stack WS, would hit every light/cloth target with no phsyical mitigation. That should be fun.

Source:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=879
((<tooltip> + <dps contribution>)+(<stat coefficient>*(<offensive stat>+<power stat>)/5))*(1+<damage bonus>)*(1-<damage reduction>)-(<stat coefficient>*(<toughness>+fortitude>)/5) = <damage>

<damage>*(1+((0.5+<crit damage bonus>)*(1-<crit damage reduction>))) = <crit damage>

<damage> OR <crit damage> * (1-<mitigation from armour or resistances>) = <final damage>

That formula is a good starting point if you want to reverse engineer the ror damage calculation. For some reason ror did not implement the forumla as shown in the thread.