Are BWs obsolete?

[Tankbeardz]

noone decent has tested it on a BW against similar skilled opposition (all the BWs I see are pug farmers)

How do you nobody decent has tested it against similar skilled opposition?

I know two that have and are no longer playing the class because it is a liability rather than an asset outside of zerg farming.

Because the small-scale hurr scene is so incestuous that news travels fast. Who?

There was 3-2-1 NA fight night (BW, SW, Slayer or WL?) and they got steamrolled by the 2-2-2 melee train, as expected. It was mostly all the same guild and I know most of the players. Range has always been derp at 6v6, long before RoR was a thing. You could get away with a BW or SW vs a weak set-up or bad team, but it was never optimal.

[Cimba]

No I haven't, but I think it's more a case of not seeing too many decent BWs lately - outside of pug farming in the lakes.

and the class is easy, let's not kid ourselves.

Soo you dont see any decent BW outside of pug farming. Can that be possibly related to the fact that they suck at everything outside of pug farming? That is well known since live and has been proven over and over in the glorious days of T3 6on6. I haven't seen anything that could have changed that in favor of BW. Quite to opposite actually with defense changes, the advent of black guards, no-turn-during-root, rd/cw removal...

The class is easy to play. But counters aren't particulary challenging either. Which is why the BW is a pug farming class and not much more.

[BrockRiefenstahl]

I see several sorcs/bws who many would not consider "skilled" still playing their classes, doing fine, and never complaining (in-game or in forums).

This is no indicator that it is "fine".

I am not a professional, but I have played quite some careers to 40/40+
I can only talk about the here and now as BW, and to me it seems wonky.

Also this argument from the BO tank a couple of pages earlier seems really pickey.
They claim they (BWs) can hit for 500 blabla. So he would not use his defensiv tool (because it only absorbs 500 dmg)
It is not like a BW is pressing a button and does for sure 500 dmg to a tank.
There are second long casts + you have to actually hit (not blocked/disrupted) +++ you need to hardcast.
The "if stars align every 6 second instant fireball" or fiery blast, arent as good as people are making that up, especially if 1 out of 3 of those "free instacasts" are also disrupted lol... Unless you spec for the tactic and be forced to the first tree.

I am still waiting for a really competent BW telling objective facts in here, and not some overhyped full geared randob noob farmers in the lakes talking like "nothing has changed"...

I dont like long SC waiting times, therefore I queue up random SCs and I see permanently my team losing to Destru Premades (I also saw you a couple of times farming us at our starting point).

Seriously, where is the burst that is mentioned here constantly if Deft Defender alone brings everybody to 25-30% disrupt then + gear and + willpower (that would be at least negated by int cap).

That means every 3rd cast if not more is disrupted (at least fireball is usefull if you spec heavy for the tactic- but again, its hardcast [not every instant is used for FB if you need to drain AP or you get the proc while casting something else])+ the need to hardcast + positioning + (but thats not a BW problem: Order has no Frontline for PuG play)
The problem that I see with this class is: There is no effort/reward curve like for other classes.
If you play properly and have good positioning + working for a window to actually hardcast vs all those tank armys, there must be a damn reward in form of dmg or burst.
And not "disrupt disrupt disrupt oh wow my dot actually made a tick wow".

[Tankbeardz]

No I haven't, but I think it's more a case of not seeing too many decent BWs lately - outside of pug farming in the lakes.

and the class is easy, let's not kid ourselves.

Soo you dont see any decent BW outside of pug farming. Can that be possibly related to the fact that they suck at everything outside of pug farming? That is well known since live and has been proven over and over in the glorious days of T3 6on6. I haven't seen anything that could have changed that in favor of BW. Quite to opposite actually with defense changes, the advent of black guards, no-turn-during-root, rd/cw removal...

The class is easy to play. But counters aren't particulary challenging either. Which is why the BW is a pug farming class and not much more.

Welcome to Magusland.

[bloodi]

There was 3-2-1 NA fight night (BW, SW, Slayer or WL?) and they got steamrolled by the 2-2-2 melee train, as expected. It was mostly all the same guild and I know most of the players. Range has always been derp at 6v6, long before RoR was a thing. You could get away with a BW or SW vs a weak set-up or bad team, but it was never optimal.

You may be one of the 10 people that think this on this server.

Case in point: viewtopic.php?f=101&t=17555

[peterthepan3]

No I haven't, but I think it's more a case of not seeing too many decent BWs lately - outside of pug farming in the lakes.

and the class is easy, let's not kid ourselves.

Soo you dont see any decent BW outside of pug farming. Can that be possibly related to the fact that they suck at everything outside of pug farming? That is well known since live and has been proven over and over in the glorious days of T3 6on6. I haven't seen anything that could have changed that in favor of BW. Quite to opposite actually with defense changes, the advent of black guards, no-turn-during-root, rd/cw removal...

The class is easy to play. But counters aren't particulary challenging either. Which is why the BW is a pug farming class and not much more.

Possibly, yet I am also inclined to believe that noone is really testing it post-patch, due to lack of serious/hardcore PvP players/guilds (the competitive scene is essentially dead), thus such blanket statements may/may not be necessarily true.
My points were aimed at OT, and others, suggesting that the BW is 'obsolete', or in an utterly useless shape. I accepted that there are flaws with the class, some difficulties posed by the new changes (including those you mentioned above which exacerbate it), but reject entirely that the class is in any worse a position than several others, and that the class cannot perform in 'competitive situations'.

Hence why it warrants some testing post-patch because, as you are aware I'm sure, there is hardly ample competition around anymore, or an active scene, where classes can be thoroughly tested against one another.

[covenn]

So yeah back to my original post. The only thing I was really suggesting is that the self damage be toned down to match where the bw/sorc is at now. I wasn't suggesting changing anything else. No doubt it was OP on live and that is why the damage was so severe, but the classes have been balanced down so I think the self damage should be to match.

[Collateral]

Also this argument from the BO tank a couple of pages earlier seems really pickey.
They claim they (BWs) can hit for 500 blabla. So he would not use his defensiv tool (because it only absorbs 500 dmg)
It is not like a BW is pressing a button and does for sure 500 dmg to a tank.
There are second long casts + you have to actually hit (not blocked/disrupted) +++ you need to hardcast.
The "if stars align every 6 second instant fireball" or fiery blast, arent as good as people are making that up, especially if 1 out of 3 of those "free instacasts" are also disrupted lol... Unless you spec for the tactic and be forced to the first tree.

If you're a single bw in a wb, you have no right to complain imo. But your point makes no sense anyway. You don't fight against a single bw in rvr. Try fighting 8+ bws + sws + slayers That's why my argument is not pickey and my point still stands, bo bubble is useless in wbs.

I'm not saying bw is absolutely op or whatever (it is 'just slightly op' in wbs). I don't play the class so I wouldn't know. But I know how we run our wbs, and how ez mode it is when you have a right composition on order.

[Tankbeardz]

There was 3-2-1 NA fight night (BW, SW, Slayer or WL?) and they got steamrolled by the 2-2-2 melee train, as expected. It was mostly all the same guild and I know most of the players. Range has always been derp at 6v6, long before RoR was a thing. You could get away with a BW or SW vs a weak set-up or bad team, but it was never optimal.

You may be one of the 10 people that think this on this server.

Case in point: viewtopic.php?f=101&t=17555

The game has changed a lot over the last YEAR. Melee train has ALWAYS been better at 6v6. The one time that range was a viable option was when the PROC meta was a thing on this server and that was because of the insane ab .ex changes to classes like the MDOK since it could spam HD while getting free damage from sorc buffs.

Nice try though. I'm supposed to be working - so excuse my lack of grammar .

[Druin]

So yeah back to my original post. The only thing I was really suggesting is that the self damage be toned down to match where the bw/sorc is at now. I wasn't suggesting changing anything else. No doubt it was OP on live and that is why the damage was so severe, but the classes have been balanced down so I think the self damage should be to match.

That really wouldn't do anything.