Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[kleinbuchstabe]

I've been to organized city matches on a DPS WP multiple times. The class performs very well, but it is the better of the two between DPS DoK and DPS WP. I've played against good DPS DoKs in the same environments. I've played against good shield DoKs too, and with good shield WPs.

The thing is that this "carried" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not being carried by your team, it's building a comp that synergizes with each other. I don't know what you even envision in your mind when you say carried, and I don't know what your gaming group is like, or how they prefer to play. There are many 40-50 year old players on this server who think they understand more about the game than they do, and perhaps they are simply unwilling to give your DoK as it is currently a chance? Or are we talking about a pug environment, where you have a random setup and you physically can't decide your own group compsition? Are these things you're supposed to consider when you talk about balance?

Ok i will just react the same way to mirror you:
The thing is that this "synergy" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not synergie, it is being carried, because you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.
Call it synergy if this sounds better for you, but the sugarcoating wont change the truth of that issue.
Nobody is unwilling to give a chance. We all agree that every other dps is a better choice, IF we dont have the perfect setup available coincidently, whats super rare because we are a small guild. And thats the difference between theory-build and reality check, and proves my point. I will repeat myself, because it seems to me that you dont (want to) get it: Im not saying the class is unplayable. Im saying that the playabiltiy of the dps dok depends alot on a very specific group setup, wich is not the case for all the other mdps. What makes him the worst choice to pick. And the reason for that, is his immobility, wich could be improved by a gap closer. Thats the core of the topic, and i agree with that.

Dont know what city matches you played. But when i ran city in an organized warband the last time (years ago), there was no place for dps doks generaly because guess what: every other mdps is a better choice, espacialy for a warband. Thats what city is: warband gameplay. And nothing changed about that. Imo the worst environment for a dualwield dok is a warband, since you only have one AoE skill, that you can spam only with a tactic. Cant imagine a more boring thing to do. And its 100% a wasted slot, because every Mara or choppa will do a better job in warband play than a dualwield dok, proving my point again. But im not talking about a gap closer here anymore, so this is offtopic allready. Same goes for shield path, thats not the point of this thread.

[live4treasure]

I've been to organized city matches on a DPS WP multiple times. The class performs very well, but it is the better of the two between DPS DoK and DPS WP. I've played against good DPS DoKs in the same environments. I've played against good shield DoKs too, and with good shield WPs.

The thing is that this "carried" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not being carried by your team, it's building a comp that synergizes with each other. I don't know what you even envision in your mind when you say carried, and I don't know what your gaming group is like, or how they prefer to play. There are many 40-50 year old players on this server who think they understand more about the game than they do, and perhaps they are simply unwilling to give your DoK as it is currently a chance? Or are we talking about a pug environment, where you have a random setup and you physically can't decide your own group compsition? Are these things you're supposed to consider when you talk about balance?

Ok i will just react the same way to mirror you:
The thing is that this "synergy" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not synergie, it is being carried, because you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.
Call it synergy if this sounds better for you, but the sugarcoating wont change the truth of that issue.
Nobody is unwilling to give a chance. We all agree that every other dps is a better choice, IF we dont have the perfect setup available coincidently, whats super rare because we are a small guild. And thats the difference between theory-build and reality check, and proves my point. I will repeat myself, because it seems to me that you dont (want to) get it: Im not saying the class is unplayable. Im saying that the playabiltiy of the dps dok depends alot on a very specific group setup, wich is not the case for all the other mdps. What makes him the worst choice to pick. And the reason for that, is his immobility, wich could be improved by a gap closer. Thats the core of the topic, and i agree with that.

Dont know what city matches you played. But when i ran city in an organized warband the last time (years ago), there was no place for dps doks generaly because guess what: every other mdps is a better choice, espacialy for a warband. Thats what city is: warband gameplay. And nothing changed about that. Imo the worst environment for a dualwield dok is a warband, since you only have one AoE skill, that you can spam only with a tactic. Cant imagine a more boring thing to do. And its 100% a wasted slot, because every Mara or choppa will do a better job in warband play than a dualwield dok, proving my point again. And im not talking about a gap closer here anymore, so this is offtopic allready. Same goes for shield path, thats not the point of this thread.

I understand your specific situation now. It's unfortunate that you do not have the option of building a comp to play your DoK the way you want to. The thing is there are two ways to solve your problem. You either make sure you can reliably build a proper group composition that works with your DoK when you want to play it. Or what you are doing now, which is to adjust the archetype to suit your needs, and the needs of people who also do not exist, or refuse to exist, in an environment that lets them mitigate the drawbacks. You're choosing the second option. It is what it is, I guess.

[nocturnalguest]

So you did not choose to start being honest, I said that a DoK can do well if carried by its team(As can any DPS), so you are now arguing against yourself while you pretend I have said the things you have lied about me saying.

Will you apologize for strawmanning me?

You just keep making stuff up, I have hundreds of games as a DPS DoK in comms as a 6 man, and I have been more then clear that I think it is bad there as well, why just lie and say I am not....?

In SCs, a ranged DPS, or a DPS with good means to get on target, or other utility like a pull, is ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more useful then a slow one that can be easily managed by a tank lol(And ****, even other DPS can easily counterplay it). It used to have the awesome devour essence to counter this, and utility to make it super worth, but with a lot of it being removed but the bad mobility remaining leaves it in a bad spot

You keep lying about things I have said, please stop.

Hahaha, why so salty? Seriously, the hell im reading lol, is it some reading comphension of your or what? Where you see "lies"? Wasnt this your own DoK balance thread here you cite at your post #29? Doesnt it contains a wording in first paragraph saying this one:

and lacking in damage

Or i somehow missread #48 with this gem

It's kill pressure is just so weak and it's so easily controlled

Your guildmates in a pug group (i agree you call them that, suboptimal comp, not much of 6v6 exp etc) didnt manage to, somehow.

Or maybe its about pug issue i mention? Not sure, not sure, especially looking at #43 with

DPS DoK clearly needs some help, keeping it bad because people who play a dead mode use 1 is horrible for those of us who have them and want to use them for the modes that actually are in the game: SCs or RvR.

However now you are playing 80% of times as organised, have most DoK exp ITT, no RvR mentioned anymore. Well, ok, good for you but not sure why you even mention that, to support your claims of how bad DPS DoK is? Thats not how it works.

Werent you providing WL example hence ive made a comment? Your #34 post

Who the hell is this "train of thoughts" huh, lol

Ill refrain from commenting rest of general cringe you type without putting even a glimpse of thought into those random claims tho or facts like, for example, you claim i ignore something while leaving a question i made for choppa unanswered as those comments will highely likely only lead to boring school level banters (i doubt you are in a mood for discussion), but im definitely open for that too, so just let me know if you wanna get some for "pulls winning fights", "running double maras" etc. I will have no joy and generally cant be arsed to explain much but if you insist lets do that.

However i have to note that as for just DPS DoK itself (not general grand scheme of things we talk about atm, like its overall role and performance) i dont think we have anything to debate about as there is no contradiction between what you, others or even me say and actually i mentioned everything in my post too (gear issues, dib issue, pug vs org issues etc). What i didnt actually cover is DE nerf but its pretty pointless discussion imo. Also in general im convinced that balance discussion in a manner of class A has B but class C has D is complete piece of crap, in all seriousness we should talk about role and performance. A point that DPS WP/DoK is comp dependant and pug unfriendly is clear and nobody argue on that.

And also here ill mention this one, worths to reach consensus on few takes

you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.

Thats an over exaggerated statement. aSW, 2h SL for example are also incredibly comp depandant and completely pug unfriendly, i wouldnt dare to pug on 2h SL and hope for effecitive results without WL/DPS WP/WH and SM with winds and healers i know. So DPS DoK/WP are not he only classes like that. And im not even touching some rdps like engi/magi Agree with rest of post tho, besides general statement about DoK/WP being worst pick DPS which is only semitrue if we dont consider fully optimized org gameplay.

Are you... Serious? I see a problem in a melee dps healer but not in WE? just because i'm asking a melee dps that does not have the same damage as a normal dps and self heal can be easily countered with m1 parry of dps or moving away, while WE can literally run away from 6 man fights, regen, do endless damages, and be though as a tank? Are you serious? This is completly unbeliavable man, i'm sorry.

Yes, im serious! Your WP has all the damage, its the same as regular DPS but it wont perform so well in pug environment as some other pure DPS like WL. Also i believe you missunderstand me with WE example as im telling you that main complains for WE can be summariezed into a point that its overloaded with tools (stealth, regen, absorb, backflip, leap etc) and you also consider WEs broken, so im saying that i see a contradiction that for your class you ask for more tools without something being taken off (so asking for a pure buff) while on the other hand for another class you see an issue. And im saying that this situation is similar, there is no difference what you overload with tools, WE or WP, such approach should be by your logic considered as flawed and not balanced. Im completely sure that there will be many soloers/puggers/casuals who will be very unhappy with you getting a charge on DPS WP.
Also for a note, there is almost no way you will escape decent 6men as WE, only if you got caught in some nice spot that you can use objectives or terrain to easily get away into safety. Decent 2-2-2 or 1-3-2 group will just burst it down np if manage to catch so it cant run away as you say but it obviously able to not even pop out and completely dodge a fight being stealthed.





tl;dr funny enough that i actually see no problems for DoK/WP getting this damn charge that this topic is all about so everyone is happy lol. This part is especially cool hahaha.

A little bit of friendly-fire i would even dare to say lmao

[kleinbuchstabe]

you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.

Thats an over exaggerated statement. aSW, 2h SL for example are also incredibly comp depandant and completely pug unfriendly, i wouldnt dare to pug on 2h SL and hope for effecitive results without WL/DPS WP/WH and SM with winds and healers i know. So DPS DoK/WP are not he only classes like that. And im not even touching some rdps like engi/magi Agree with rest of post tho, besides general statement about DoK/WP being worst pick DPS which is only semitrue if we dont consider fully optimized org gameplay.

haha ok, you come around here with Slayer, whos in the second worst mdps state, fair enough. I will bite, but still i think theres a difference. For the sake of simplicity i stay on dok instead of expanding everything for WP.

For dok, there is only one realy good tank choice, wich is a BO with speed buff ability. Or any tank with full sov defset buff, but this is a suboptimal set choice for smallscale, because you waste tanks dps. And for DD, there is only the pulling mara, who can make up for his immobility shortcomings. Thats why i say its very specific. If we realy talk serioulsly about eliminating the immobility shortcomings, then this is not the best - it is the only way to go. Otherwise you wont see a dok reaching the backline alive against not-braindead rdps players. There is only one flee, and one range detaunt

Slayer doesnt have these kind problems. Sure, an IB who pushes his AA would be the best support for him, but he would still work with Kotbs or SM without any issues. And DD wise, you listed any other melee DPS classes here yourself , wich means that everyone of them would be fine for him. So, now compare the two benchwarmers, group setup wise.

Maybe im exaggerating a little bit. Because dok still has a flee button, a speed proc on the finisher, and a speed proc for RR points. So there are some tools to compensate by chance. OK. But again, im not saying that the class is unplayble, and never did! I just claim that hes the worst mdps choice in most situations, because of his lack of mobility. And thats why im pro gap closer, in the dual wield path.