[WITCH ELF] amelioration

[Atropik]

To me. It sounds like you are talking about balance outside of a group. Because in one you wouldn't be saying things like.

Im talking about damage output in solo runs, or in 6vs6, im not intrested in pug determination while runnin 6 men group.

" I don't like being hurt so I don't use taste for blood"- it's one of your best tactics and when you're in group its a must as its pretty much a free 10% damage bonus.

15% correct, but i would say FM much better.

"Wracking Pains is a waste of a GCD"- I can't say enough how much a long dot, that reduces my targets toughness and weapon skill,and covers up your heal debuff with another cleanse is not a waste of a GCD and you should be using it after every opener.

By 21 toughness and weapon skill, Carl, must be the best debuff in this game, realy. Just imagine, you got -21 weapon skill debuff playing a RunePriest or Shadow Warrior, or Kotbs, Tragedy! And toughness yes, -21 also. After every opener? and if I can kill in 3 GKD just spaming AW, i should use WP? Okay.

damage to attacks is extremely useful due to less mitigation and when it procs quickly, (AW, Auto, AW, Auto, Auto) all within 2-4 seconds that can be better than Exit Wound. 5x500 is 2500. That's your low end damage from WB and it is more than EW and its guaranteed. Unike an ability that could not crit, could be parried, etc

Have you ever used WB? It is not a nuke, you cannot hit with WB right now, you need to rebuff it, lose crit bonus, and only then youll get some additional damage, probably you would be detaunted, or your opponent would be guarded, but meh. I prefer EW yes, i prefer hit now while enemy is still knocked down, after knock down he would stand up and run away and youll stay the place with your brilliant WB buffed damage.

3. At 40/80. Where the game is balanced. Not before. Not in t3. Not in t2.

and in 40/60? No? Okay

These classes are the singles best mirror in game. Mirror=different but equal. WH has an extra defense tool in RB and slightly better finishers.

phhhhhh.

WE has more synergy in groups due to death reaper m3, solid none physical damage, WP and WB, which work great when assisting, and a bit more control on when thier burst, although lower than WHs but more reliable, will be delivered.

Oh that Mythic synergy due to M3, makes my day. Man, i believe these classes are about NUKE, heavy hard NUKES right now in a one moments, and not about 21 sec dots and rebuffs, and you seems to be really worried aboud dots then yes, WEs dots are far more superior, both of them.

Matter in a group evaluation of WH vs WE this also points towards a comparison of them in 1v1 for me which is not where balance is looked at.

So we are focused on 6vs6 balance? Or on 8vs8 balance? ive heard 13vs13 was new meta few month ago. And i picked up WE/WH for solo runs, i was wrong.

4. I can tell you now WH/WE will never get IP/FC core. It makes no sense and would make them the strongest mdps in game, mainly WE who would then be able to freely slot tactics like swift pursuit and have a charge on the class that is not supposed to have one all the time due to stealth being their gap closer.

Well someone, plz, bring us new balance moderator WH/WE thread specialist, this one seems totaly broken:
- Core IP means "not in mastery tree" IP, you still have to slot it, it is still a tactic.
- This change would make 1+2 spec valuable for both classes, but having utility they will lose AW/torment damage.
- Swift Pursuit gives you 25% speed bonus, flee is bit faster, so i prefer flee+2 blue AP pots, also noone would use flee without usuing fleefooted, right?
- WE has 10! (IP, Brute Force, Flanking, Frenzied Mayhem, Taste of Blood, For the Hag Queen(additional stun second on OyK), MT, Exotic Venom, Septic Blade, Swift Moments) tactics to use, and only then I would think about Swift Pursuit instead of flee, ahh, almost forget 2 tactics for parry spec, they both are much then SP.
- And even Swift Pursuit for free, without tactic slot, would change nothing for WE, i can ensure you.

I hope this clarifies some of these points for you.

I guess no.

[Tklees]

Bud we aren't going to agree. You still have yet to make a single point supported by anything other than you not liking what I have posted. The fact that you think having a charge on WE/WH would change nothing and that you can't see a WH/WEs value outside of a burst class means we look at these classes completely different ways. Which is fine you are entitled to your opinion. My mistake on your definition of core no need to be dropping insults. I will say it one more time since your vision seems to be tunneled. I HAVE AS MUCH SAY ON BALANCE AS YOU. All I do is enforce rules. I am going to refrain from replying to your posts as my answers seem to be not what you want to hear.

[Penril]

Atropik, stop omnislashing (if you don't know what that is, check http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... 78&t=11105).

FM is good for builds where you don't use your finishers that much. Otherwise, it is better to run with ToB, Masterful treachery or Swift Movements. In other words, ToB>FM in Witchbrew spec. Too bad ToB won't be available until lvl 35.

Wracking pains debuffs for way more than 21. Also, if you are WB spec, the debuff is pretty decent.

Currently, Witchbrew is the strongest spec for WEs.

"Phhhhhh" is not a valid argument.

You say these classes are all about "nukes" yet you fail to see the huge burst you can get in a WB spec.

Yes, we are focused on 6v6 balance. Devs have said this several times. Not that it matterrs to WH/WE, who are amongst the best solo classes in the game (probably surpassed only by DPS healers).

[Jaycub]

My suggestions are: stealth increased to 1 min, keep cooldown 30sec, remove gcd from bullets/poisons. "For T4: tactic swift pursuit: add 25% run speed not only to fleet footed but also to stealth. This will make the tactic more worth to waste a slot for and would be a more viable gap closer." I just saw that WH has no such tactic, only sigil of sigmar ability so nevermind this suggestion or maybe you have a better idea :/

I think stealth should be made usable more frequently not longer. The problem with stealth now is most of the time you use it within ~150ft of a fight to engage the enemy, a good example is popping it before bridge on nordenwatch. It should only take ~15 seconds to get to something you want to kill, the problem is stealth only goes on CD once you exit meaning most of the time you can only use it once every like 45 seconds... 60 at worst, considering this is our engagement tool I don't think that's really fair.

The other problem with stealth is at high level play voice comms pretty much remove the of element of surprise, you will get near instantly peeled on so you can't really play as an "assassin" you pretty much play like any other MDPS except you use stealth to get into fights instead of say charge or pounce, or bringing the fight to you via pulls or any kind of ranged CC.

Invisibility in this game also has quite a bit of counterplay/unreliability/RNG in terms of how effective it can be, It could really use a buff seeing as it is part of the WE/WH class "mechanic" which might be one of the most uninspired/boring in the game.

I'm just looking for stealth to be something I can rely on more to engage into a fight, not turn it into some kind of OP defensive tool etc...

Edit: actually just read the OP for the 1st time :^)))) after posting this. S A D B O Y S, but I feel the same way as OP, except I believe a tweaked stealth will be fine... no need for a sprint ability.

[Toldavf]

Invisibility in this game also has quite a bit of counterplay/unreliability/RNG in terms of how effective it can be, It could really use a buff seeing as it is part of the WE/WH class "mechanic" which might be one of the most uninspired/boring in the game.

I heard that at one point openers used to crit

The problem with assassins is the same in any mmo balancing their ability to do their job with every other classes enjoyment of the game

[Nemoel]

I agree with you, Jacub. In groupplay people prefer marauder/choppa/sorc for destru and slayer/bw/wl for order as dd before we/wh. Slayer/marauder/ have charge every 30 sec, wl has insta pounce but we/wh very often get knocked out of stealth. As a we/wh you have barely a chance to reach the range dds/healers because they run away as soon they see your guard tank running with you. Therefore i change my suggestions to make stealth available more often, give a 25% charge either to stealth or to flee footed/sigill of sigmar. +35% to the tactic swift pursuit. Make kisses/bullets not knocking you out of stealth and without gcd. This are just my personal suggestions no must -changes.

[Atropik]

Atropik, stop omnislashing

Okay, done.

You say these classes are all about "nukes" yet you fail to see the huge burst you can get in a WB spec.

Delayed huge burst, word "Delayed" is the key.

[dirnsterer]

The other problem with stealth is at high level play voice comms pretty much remove the of element of surprise, you will get near instantly peeled on so you can't really play as an "assassin" you pretty much play like any other MDPS except you use stealth to get into fights instead of say charge or pounce, or bringing the fight to you via pulls or any kind of ranged CC.

Invisibility in this game also has quite a bit of counterplay/unreliability/RNG in terms of how effective it can be, It could really use a buff seeing as it is part of the WE/WH class "mechanic" which might be one of the most uninspired/boring in the game.

This is quite a good point. In 6vs6 or such more focused setting what I played as WE, the stealth only fits in as a "Stealth, open instantly after to get that juicy 50% less AP consumption on abilities" trick if anything. Or brief breather from possible damage.

[mursie]

Have you ever used WB? It is not a nuke, you cannot hit with WB right now, you need to rebuff it, lose crit bonus, and only then youll get some additional damage, probably you would be detaunted, or your opponent would be guarded, but meh. I prefer EW yes, i prefer hit now while enemy is still knocked down, after knock down he would stand up and run away and youll stay the place with your brilliant WB buffed damage.

Serious question - have you used WB on this server? Not live, here.

If not, I'd suggest you try it. This is not the WB you remember. You are selling its new burst, very short.

[Bretin]

- MT (no one uses MT instead of OyK/WB + no free tactic slot for tactic with 1 min CD at minimum)

who whould spec OyK for anything else than trolling?

- WB (cause it is not about burst),

a additional dmg proc for your attacks is not considered as burst? wow...

- Taste of blood (i dont like to be hurt playing WE, and being hurt im usually dead),

ya, makes sense... not

- Frenzied Mayhem (cause Brute Force gives you more damage), maybe later in t4, let FM be the first arguement,

mh can you provide some math to back up your logic about BF?

PA (yes, PA deals more damage, but only about 10% harder then AW, and 10 sec CD, it is not an advantage)

you know how burst is determined right? high dmg in a short time period - in war 1-3 s. PA needs to hit 1 time to unleash its burst potential, so idk why we're discussing cd's.
besides: your full potential is on a 1 min CD anyway so 10s don't seem to be bad. cd's are here to tell you when your burst is ready AGAIN not how strong it hits.

- Wrecking Pains (better spend GCD for AW),

completely wrong. it just doesn't fit into the frontloaded burst rotation shebali teached you guys on youtube - thus you underestimate it.
WP is always worth the GCD and fits perfect into the WE's rotation. it's a great ability and almost always worth the gcd.

4. And i will make a suggestion, like "make IP core tactic for both classes", but we need to get lvl 40/50 at first for such kind of suggestions.

seems fair, let's removes the last restrictions in terms of tactics and skills choice!