WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[Wichelfa]

The playerbase and team hopefully changes the tone on small game / 1v1 play. It happens all the time and is the primary media used to gain new players. Nobody watches a blob v blob video and thinks, "I want to play that!", they see the 1v1 videos, cool looking characters and combat data that doesn't visually overload them and give the game a try.

This is true, but it is because there is no media for them to consume that shows them the team-oriented side of the game. As they only ever see solo-roam vids, they think this is what the game is all about, rather than the brutal, unforgiving, endgame playstyle that it actually is.

If there were content creators who created 6-man/WB content, players would be brought to the game for that gameplay, just as they are now with solo-roam videos. Imagine videos on how to play in a 6-man in the same vein as Daewuur's solo roam vids, with instructions on how and why things are happening.

Large-scale PvP is the selling point for the game, but there is strangely very little media where it's shown.

This is rarely shown because it's incredibly boring. In mass content, there are four possible scenarios:
1: There are more of us, we push, the enemy runs, everyone spams pointless and aimless AOE (this can be posted, but it's not spectacular).
2. There are fewer of us, they push us, they spam AOE at us (we don't post this content because it's not true).
3. Two strong 6v6 groups meet, can't kill anyone for half an hour, and then disperse.
4. A group of six retreats from a large number of enemies, spreads them out, then finishes off the unwary solo players. (Well, again, it's boring because six people hit one, then another... (perhaps spectacular, but a stretch, for those who already play but don't yet fully understand how easy it is).)

And solo videos always look like a challenge and overcoming it, and that's what people are interested in.

[lumpi33]

You either ignore my statement that everyone who talks about the imbalance of a certain class has no experience playing that class, or you are afraid of losing in a duel while controlling an imbalanced class.
PS: My point is that I kill literally any WE on the server and I don't have any problems with it.
PPS:So maybe the problem is not in WE but in you.

You don't seem to get my point.

In small scale they can pick their fights and leave whenever they want to. They have all the tools they need to control the fight how they want to. You can do nothing about it.

In group scale like scenarios they turn into monsters in assist trains with their 3s KDs, heal debuffs, high damage, procs, pounce and snares, bubble after crit and escape buttons to get out. Compare that to lets say a slayer. Why would you wanna play a slayer? You don't. What does that tell you?

[Farrul]

You don't seem to get my point.

In small scale they can pick their fights and leave whenever they want to. They have all the tools they need to control the fight how they want to. You can do nothing about it.

In group scale like scenarios they turn into monsters in assist trains with their 3s KDs, heal debuffs, high damage, procs, bubble after crit and escape buttons to get out. Compare that to lets say a slayer. Why would you wanna play a slayer? You don't. What does that tell you?

The utility the WE has with a absorb/lifesteal is obviously not balanced and most know it, hence it's strange the devs do nothing about it.

[Wichelfa]

You either ignore my statement that everyone who talks about the imbalance of a certain class has no experience playing that class, or you are afraid of losing in a duel while controlling an imbalanced class.
PS: My point is that I kill literally any WE on the server and I don't have any problems with it.
PPS:So maybe the problem is not in WE but in you.

You don't seem to get my point.

In small scale they can pick their fights and leave whenever they want to. They have all the tools they need to control the fight how they want to. You can do nothing about it.

In group scale like scenarios they turn into monsters in assist trains with their 3s KDs, heal debuffs, high damage, procs, pounce and snares, bubble after crit and escape buttons to get out. Compare that to lets say a slayer. Why would you wanna play a slayer? You don't. What does that tell you?

Do you even understand what you wrote? The Slayer has everything the same (except for the bubble) plus medium armor or +50% damage. And I'll note, the bubble is a tactics slot; I haven't even gotten to the Slayer's tactics. There's a lot of interesting stuff there, too.
Everything you write here is pure theorycraft. I once again challenge you to try out a WE and prove to me that this class is unbalanced.
P.S. Have you ever wondered why there are so many WE\WH duo/trio on the server? Is it because they're not very strong solo

[lumpi33]

You don't seem to get my point.

In small scale they can pick their fights and leave whenever they want to. They have all the tools they need to control the fight how they want to. You can do nothing about it.

In group scale like scenarios they turn into monsters in assist trains with their 3s KDs, heal debuffs, high damage, procs, bubble after crit and escape buttons to get out. Compare that to lets say a slayer. Why would you wanna play a slayer? You don't. What does that tell you?

The utility the WE has with a absorb/lifesteal is obviously not balanced and most know it, hence it's strange the devs do nothing about it.

They need at least the following nerfs:
- KD down to 2s
- bubble after crit down to 400 to be in line with other self absorbs
- no dual in and out heal debuffing. Only one of it. Dual debuffing a healer with all the armor pierce, kd and high damage is too op.
- less pouncing. They already two speed buffs and a snare with dagger. That pounce with snare is so broken op. You just cannot shake them off anymore. Why does a class need 3 powerful gap closers (charge, pounce, dagger throw snare)? Other classes have zero like the engi.

[Farrul]

Everything you write here is pure theorycraft. I once again challenge you to try out a WE and prove to me that this class is unbalanced.
P.S. Have you ever wondered why there are so many WE\WH duo/trio on the server? Is it because they're not very strong solo

Solo does not imply a duel or 1vs1 , here your argument falls apart, on the assumption that it does.

Now why is Def WE specifically considered OP and toxic to the server? Why do not players complain about a WE which is squishy like a WH, aka glass?

Because once you have a ''spec'' ( we are talking about a spec here, not entire WE class, mid-tree to be specific) that can sustain well with the S tier escape tools and stealth utility you have a spec that quickly snowballs into the situation that everyone can so clearly see, a polluting of the rvr lake with unhealthy amount of WE just ''roaming'' and not contributing anything to warbands fights etc-

Just making the place a zone of griefing and obviously not healthy for the server as per Topic.

[Culexus]

The playerbase and team hopefully changes the tone on small game / 1v1 play. It happens all the time and is the primary media used to gain new players. Nobody watches a blob v blob video and thinks, "I want to play that!", they see the 1v1 videos, cool looking characters and combat data that doesn't visually overload them and give the game a try.

This is true, but it is because there is no media for them to consume that shows them the team-oriented side of the game. As they only ever see solo-roam vids, they think this is what the game is all about, rather than the brutal, unforgiving, endgame playstyle that it actually is.

If there were content creators who created 6-man/WB content, players would be brought to the game for that gameplay, just as they are now with solo-roam videos. Imagine videos on how to play in a 6-man in the same vein as Daewuur's solo roam vids, with instructions on how and why things are happening.

Large-scale PvP is the selling point for the game, but there is strangely very little media where it's shown.

This is rarely shown because it's incredibly boring. In mass content, there are four possible scenarios:
1: There are more of us, we push, the enemy runs, everyone spams pointless and aimless AOE (this can be posted, but it's not spectacular).
2. There are fewer of us, they push us, they spam AOE at us (we don't post this content because it's not true).
3. Two strong 6v6 groups meet, can't kill anyone for half an hour, and then disperse.
4. A group of six retreats from a large number of enemies, spreads them out, then finishes off the unwary solo players. (Well, again, it's boring because six people hit one, then another... (perhaps spectacular, but a stretch, for those who already play but don't yet fully understand how easy it is).)

And solo videos always look like a challenge and overcoming it, and that's what people are interested in.

Picking the four worst scenarios whilst ignoring the good ones, then saying that's all the content those videos could contain, is rubbish.

See, I can do the same with solo-roam. Solo roam videos would be incredibly boring to watch because:

1. Getting killed by every enemy group/wb in the lake who will chase you into PvE for the kill.
2. Constant ganks by stealthers that re-stealth when they start losing.
3. DPS healers everywhere that apply a few DoTs that hit like trucks, then run away.
4. Unkillable regen tanks that are as much fun to fight as watching paint dry.

See, why would anyone want to watch that? They don't, which is why solo-roam vids are highlight reels pulled from hours of solo roaming. Just like group content would be highlight reels of hours of group content.

If we had media of the same quality as solo-roam vids that show how to play group content and highlight group play, maybe RvR and scenarios wouldn't be in the godawful state that they are. It certainly wouldn't fix it, but it wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, this is wildly off-topic, so I'll leave it there.

On topic:

When we get a thread where players are as passionate and demanding of a nerf to the class they play because their class easily hard counters another, then maybe these "balance" threads should start being taken seriously. But that thread has never been made, and will never be made, because all balance discussions for this game are based on the emotions of players after being beaten by another class in 1v1.

If you're not gonna cry about your rock beating your opponent's scissors, then don't cry about your opponent's paper beating your rock. That's not a balance discussion; that's you wanting to be rid of the negative emotion you feel when you lose.

[Farrul]

They need at least the following nerfs:
- KD down to 2s
- bubble after crit down to 400 to be in line with other self absorbs
- no dual in and out heal debuffing. Only one of it. Dual debuffing a healer with all the armor pierce, kd and high damage is too op.
- less pouncing. They already two speed buffs and a snare with dagger. That pounce with snare is so broken op. You just cannot shake them off anymore. Why does a class need 3 powerful gap closers (charge, pounce, dagger throw snare)? Other classes have zero like the engi.

I think they should honestly rework the mid-tree, no need to nerf if they ''design it'' correct in the first place. It's supposed to be a dps class with stealth not a brawler marauder mdps or tank class. It could be given some new tools like Repel blashemy which suits a stealth class, but need to drop this passive tankiness nonsense.

I mean 3s KD is standard so i wouldnt touch that, absorb tactic has been overpowered for a long time so i agree on the nerf to 400.

But i feel we are just trying to argue for ''damage control'' here in hindsight, the balance team messed up in the latest mdps patch and gave stuff like wound debuff and 2 x jumps. That is the elephant in the room, so for now let the results speak for themselves. I hope the ones that coould make a difference will realize there is an issue here and do balance adjustments accordingly.

[Wichelfa]

You don't seem to get my point.

In small scale they can pick their fights and leave whenever they want to. They have all the tools they need to control the fight how they want to. You can do nothing about it.

In group scale like scenarios they turn into monsters in assist trains with their 3s KDs, heal debuffs, high damage, procs, bubble after crit and escape buttons to get out. Compare that to lets say a slayer. Why would you wanna play a slayer? You don't. What does that tell you?

The utility the WE has with a absorb/lifesteal is obviously not balanced and most know it, hence it's strange the devs do nothing about it.

They need at least the following nerfs:
- KD down to 2s
- bubble after crit down to 400 to be in line with other self absorbs
- no dual in and out heal debuffing. Only one of it. Dual debuffing a healer with all the armor pierce, kd and high damage is too op.
- less pouncing. They already two speed buffs and a snare with dagger. That pounce with snare is so broken op. You just cannot shake them off anymore. Why does a class need 3 powerful gap closers (charge, pounce, dagger throw snare)? Other classes have zero like the engi.

- KD down to 2s - What about the White Lion, Magus/Engineer(AoE) Choppa/Slayers(undefend)?
- bubble after crit down to 400 to be in line with other self absorbs - and same time all imperial have 375 absorb tactic
- no dual in and out heal debuffing. Only one of it. Dual debuffing a healer with all the armor pierce, kd and high damage is too op.- Choppas?
- less pouncing. They already two speed buffs and a snare with dagger. That pounce with snare is so broken op. You just cannot shake them off anymore. Why does a class need 3 powerful gap closers (charge, pounce, dagger throw snare)? Other classes have zero like the engi. - Last point just LOL... engie rdd, rdd not need breake a distance. Let's see if there is the same thing on the order side....Pounce, charge,fetch...

[Wichelfa]

They need at least the following nerfs:
- KD down to 2s
- bubble after crit down to 400 to be in line with other self absorbs
- no dual in and out heal debuffing. Only one of it. Dual debuffing a healer with all the armor pierce, kd and high damage is too op.
- less pouncing. They already two speed buffs and a snare with dagger. That pounce with snare is so broken op. You just cannot shake them off anymore. Why does a class need 3 powerful gap closers (charge, pounce, dagger throw snare)? Other classes have zero like the engi.

I think they should honestly rework the mid-tree, no need to nerf if they ''design it'' correct in the first place. It's supposed to be a dps class with stealth not a brawler marauder mdps or tank class. It could be given some new tools like Repel blashemy which suits a stealth class, but need to drop this passive tankiness nonsense.

I mean 3s KD is standard so i wouldnt touch that, absorb tactic has been overpowered for a long time so i agree on the nerf to 400.

But i feel we are just trying to argue for ''damage control'' here in hindsight, the balance team messed up in the latest mdps patch and gave stuff like wound debuff and 2 x jumps. That is the elephant in the room, so for now let the results speak for themselves. I hope the ones that coould make a difference will realize there is an issue here and do balance adjustments accordingly.

How can someone so completely out of touch with ЦE even discuss the balance of this class? No sane player would use it because it's a waste of GCD.
Just so you understand:
1. You've been oppened
2. KD
3. PA
4. SS
only this work because in other situation you take detaunt. And after oppener target give 1-2 aa which reduces the efficiency wounds debuff up to zero