[Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith

[Bretin]

I still strongly feel there are -better- ways to make melee WP viable, unique and fun. It's not all about numbers and meta.

i honestly appreciate your conjunction towards roleplay, lore and what not but yet you didn't made a single suggestion. my question is: why do you constantly talk about great solutions if you can't name one. sadly it's not all about "da waaagh", "da stumpnz" and "all hail Karl Franz the emporer" but about numbers and a meta game. we don't play design your own fantasy world, we play a PvP based MMORPG that's something you seem to suppress.

[Azarael]

So it's fine to bring other classes into it as long as it supports a specific point of view? Confused... *squint*

Check the balance forum rules. I'll lay out the relevant section:

3. No reciprocal adjustments, aka: Don't appeal to your mirror.

When we are balancing classes, we are doing so in isolation. That means when we are considering, for example, Witch Elf and how to address any issues the class may have, we are NOT interested in hearing about how Witch Hunter will need X buffed or Y nerfed in order to maintain mirror parity. We will address Witch Elf first, and then, when Witch Hunter comes into the frame for adjustment, address that class. The exception to this rule is if Witch Hunter has already been addressed.

This rule applies on the realm scale as well as the class scale, and it applies bilaterally. This means that, for example, if Destruction class X is in the frame for buffs or nerfs, we are not interested in hearing about how Order class Y must immediately be buffed or nerfed to compensate or how Destruction class Z has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first. Unlike with classes, there are no exceptions to this rule when it applies to realms.

Were this in the balance forum, this means that the following would be invalid:

- Attempting to block a change to WP based on DoK being either underpowered or overpowered
- Attempting to get changes to any other class based on changes to WP
- Attempting to block a change to WP because other Order or Destruction classes have problems

Nothing else. Therefore, it is valid to make comparisons to a class's peers on the same side and to its mirror if this demonstrates that the class in question is underperforming. The vital thing is that the focus remains on the class itself: how it as a whole competes with its peers and its mirror for a place and how its specs compete against each other for usage. These are, after all, the only measures of balance.

[Luranni]

I still strongly feel there are -better- ways to make melee WP viable, unique and fun. It's not all about numbers and meta.

i honestly appreciate your conjunction towards roleplay, lore and what not but honestly yet you didn't made a single suggestion. my question is: why do you constantly talk about great solutions if you can't name one. sadly it's not all about "da waaagh", "da stumpnz" and "all hail Karl Franz the emporer" but about numbers and a meta game. we don't play design your own fantasy world, we play a PvP based MMORPG that's something you seem to suppress.

I didn't make a -single- suggestion because I believe there is a much wider discussion to be had here, and a big breakdown of the available buffs/debuffs in the game, how spread and prevalent they are, what can be done to really make melee WP (and indeed other hybrids and other specs) stand out more on its own merits, can we perhaps use improved versions of some armour procs to bring something entirely new to the table, can we create completely new abilities.. HUGE discussion.

If you don't take lore into account as well when in a Warhammer game, you're missing out on a vast pool of inspiration and creative ideas to make the classes really shine in interesting ways. You saw the dogsmeat Mythic made of WP by ignoring the lore and slapping a book on it? That's what got us here .

What I find amusing is a) the level of hypocrisy being thrown around, b) the casual dismissal of all opinions, c) the point-blank refusal to potentially have a much, much greater class (awesome to play, fun, balanced, useful) just because you want the heal debuff right. this. second.

Think bigger man, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater for a "quick fix".

[Bretin]

To the ones that still didnt get the idea behind this buff.

When you build a meleesetup there are 2 important things you need for your offense: Armordebuff and healdebuff.
Going without one of them gives you big trouble fighting premades.

When you have a mdps without hd he better has a huge armordebuff (WL), the WP doesnt.
And yes IB can provide armordebuff too and there is a difference resulting in a dmg boost etc etc. Neither can the WLs dmg be provided by the WP nor his armordebuff making the WP a bad choice as a mdps in general.
Right now and in t4 a 2-2-2 with wp and wl will be a big nono, so wl and wp can be the second dps in grp but never the first. A hd would make him fit into any mdps setup.
Later when you can specc more dmg and hd on slayer and witchhunter what is going to speak in the wps favor? Maybe a hd with a type the dok cant cleanse. For sure not his dmg in general.


The defense he provides is balanced due to the inferior pressure on the enemy grp resulting in more pressure on your grp.

What speaks in this buffs favor now?
Better mdps diversity in meleesetups.

What speaks in this buffs favor later?
Better hd keeps him relevant as a mdps.

Without a good hd, what does he offer in t4?
Read the red sentence above and make yourself aware that this is a sustain balance we are talking about. Sustain is outhealed easily, while burst kills people. Burst the WP cant offer.

[Penril]

Bretin, i understand what you say about 2-2-2. But let's analyze other setups for a sec.

1-3-2: 1 tank floats guard between Slayer (Shatter Limbs + ID) and WL (armor debuff, pounce). WP heal debuffs and doesnt need guard because he has free AoE detaunt. He can also provide decent heals if he specs Grace of Sigmar, making up for the lack of a second tank. As you can see, saying that the free AoE detaunt is irrelevant in a 6-man is false (depending on the setup, as i mentioned).
edit: If the tank is a SM, you gain the same benefits as in my 2-3-1 example.

If you have a SM, you could even have a 2-3-1 setup, with let's say KotBS/SM/Sla/WL/DPS Wp/healer. The WP could go with the usual 3 DPS tactics + Grace of Sigmar, providing decent heals for his group. With the amount of spirit resist debuffs granted by the SM + Whispering Winds, Divine Assault will heal pretty well. Also, the WP hd will have a 5 sec CD constantly (uncleansable by doks, except for their M2).

Maybe not the best setups for a 6v6, but very strong and viable for RvR/SCs.

edit 2: Don't get me wrong, as i already said, i think WPs should get their 50% hd. But we need to look at several scenarios, not just 2-2-2.

[ThePollie]

Bretin, i understand what you say about 2-2-2. But let's analyze other setups for a sec.

1-3-2: 1 tank floats guard between Slayer (Shatter Limbs + ID) and WL (armor debuff, pounce). WP heal debuffs and doesnt need guard because he has free AoE detaunt. He can also provide decent heals if he specs Grace of Sigmar, making up for the lack of a second tank. As you can see, saying that the free AoE detaunt is irrelevant in a 6-man is false (depending on the setup, as i mentioned).
edit: If the tank is a SM, you gain the same benefits as in my 2-3-1 example.

If you have a SM, you could even have a 2-3-1 setup, with let's say KotBS/SM/Sla/WL/DPS Wp/healer. The WP could go with the usual 3 DPS tactics + Grace of Sigmar, providing decent heals for his group. With the amount of spirit resist debuffs granted by the SM + Whispering Winds, Divine Assault will heal pretty well. Also, the WP hd will have a 5 sec CD constantly (uncleansable by doks, except for their M2).


Maybe not the best setups for a 6v6, but very strong and viable for RvR/SCs.

AoE detaunt is not a free Guard. Guard always protects. What are you going to do about the Sorcerer outside of the melee train that isn't detaunted? Or the Choppa that was 5 feet out of range when you used it? The Blackguard you can't detaunt? And you can still disable him just before the cool-down ends and burst him while he's powerless to reapply it.

Divine Assault is easily interrupted and can be crippled by parry, block, and guard - counters a Warrior priest can do absolutely nothing about. As for running one dedicated healer? That's risky. You can just disarm the Warrior priest and train him with a heal-debuff. Now you have one healer trying to overpower the entire team while contending with only half healing.

Could the strategy work? Certainly, even with its flaws. I fail to see how worries that something other than cookie-cutter group-formats being viable reason enough to quash change.

[mursie]

[Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith
Postby Bretin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:54 pm

I suggest to change Absence of Faith, the WPs healdebuff, to a 50% (atm 25%) incoming healdebuff and reduce its cooldown to 10s (atm 20s).

Re: [Warrior Priest]Absence of Faith
Postby Azarael » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:12 pm

This is 7 days' notice of intent to trial. Get your arguments both for and against in.

Well done - 18 minutes to get a new balance change through. I tip my cap to you sir.

[Penril]

What are you going to do about the Sorcerer outside of the melee train that isn't detaunted?

Cleanse its dots. Then kill it.

Or the Choppa that was 5 feet out of range when you used it? The Blackguard you can't detaunt? And you can still disable him just before the cool-down ends and burst him while he's powerless to reapply it.

A good tank can still swap guard to the WP. He just won't have to do it nearly as often as if it was a different class.

Divine Assault is easily interrupted and can be crippled by parry, block, and guard - counters a Warrior priest can do absolutely nothing about.

Sigmar's Radiance can still heal for a decent amount if applied on a target that was armor debuffed by a WL. As for Parry and block, you can always try to attack your target from behind (Slayer, WL and tank can help with their snares). As for guard... if you desperately need heals, you can switch to an unguarded target.

As for running one dedicated healer? That's risky. You can just disarm the Warrior priest and train him with a heal-debuff. Now you have one healer trying to overpower the entire team while contending with only half healing.

Yes it is risky, for a 6v6. Completely viable in RvR and SCs though.

Could the strategy work? Certainly, even with its flaws. I fail to see how worries that something other than cookie-cutter group-formats being viable reason enough to quash change.

As i said, im ok with the proposed 50% hd for WP. Just wanted to point out how it would play out in different group setups.

[Bretin]

If you don't take lore into account as well when in a Warhammer game, you're missing out on a vast pool of inspiration and creative ideas to make the classes really shine in interesting ways. You saw the dogsmeat Mythic made of WP by ignoring the lore and slapping a book on it? That's what got us here .

fyi: i took account into the lore and asked a friend of mine who played warhammer fantasy competitive about the wp. he told me the wp was already trash back then. so i assume the mythic devs were aware of the lore too when designing the melee wp.

[ThePollie]

What are you going to do about the Sorcerer outside of the melee train that isn't detaunted?

Cleanse its dots. Then kill it.
Cleanse Chillwind. He immediately reapplies it and continues with rotation. Morale knockdown, snare, disarm, you won't get near him on your own. If your entire team can make it that far, you've probably already won, anyway.

Or the Choppa that was 5 feet out of range when you used it? The Blackguard you can't detaunt? And you can still disable him just before the cool-down ends and burst him while he's powerless to reapply it.

A good tank can still swap guard to the WP. He just won't have to do it nearly as often as if it was a different class.
I fail to see a problem here. Can't get it both ways. Either the Warrior priest's self-sustain is a strength and it doesn't need mobility or damage, or it's overpowered and needs to be nerfed. White Lion's have fantastic mobility, Witch Hunter's have stealth, and Warrior Priests are damn hard to kill at times.

Divine Assault is easily interrupted and can be crippled by parry, block, and guard - counters a Warrior priest can do absolutely nothing about.

Sigmar's Radiance can still heal for a decent amount if applied on a target that was armor debuffed by a WL. As for Parry and block, you can always try to attack your target from behind (Slayer, WL and tank can help with their snares). As for guard... if you desperately need heals, you can switch to an unguarded target.
White Lion debuffed someone else and you can't reach them through the cluster of roots and snares. Target is focusing you, you can't get around behind it. Again, you can't reach anyone else. Situational, but I see it happen. Thankfully Radiance's base heal ensures it's never completely useless. But even with the tactic, 400 heal every global is not going to stop a focused attack.

As for running one dedicated healer? That's risky. You can just disarm the Warrior priest and train him with a heal-debuff. Now you have one healer trying to overpower the entire team while contending with only half healing.

Yes it is risky, for a 6v6. Completely viable in RvR and SCs though.

Could the strategy work? Certainly, even with its flaws. I fail to see how worries that something other than cookie-cutter group-formats being viable reason enough to quash change.

As i said, im ok with the proposed 50% hd for WP. Just wanted to point out how it would play out in different group setups.

A lot of good points, but I'm honestly looking forward to it. I'd like to actually see these sort of tactics being viable, instead of everyone being pressured into cookie-cutter builds, because it's simply the only viable choice.