[Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

[Karast]

As a stationary class, you should become THE most potent thing on the battlefield if allowed to freecast and remain in same position. That is simply not the case, which renders the whole idea of engi being stationary dps null and void imo given the plethora of issues it has

That's the thing though isn't it?

Are we stationary dps? Are we defensive dps? Are we a dot based dps? Are we a utility dps?

Everyone under the sun has their own idea of what the class is suppose to be and do, and that is something that is going to need a bit of discussion.

The original dev's from live were never able to answer that question. Most people started to see engi as utility, because that was the most functional of the spec's.

The whole argument of us being stationary dps came after they added the turret damage buff after 1.4.1 but that was them doing a quick and easy change while ignoring a lot of the key problems. It was a band-aid, that people now see as the classes core mechanic.

You can see a lot of different opinions and play-styles with engi's that played before 1.4, and those that started after.

[Penril]

I have a question to all experienced Engies.

If Engie is supposed to be a stationary DPS, wouldnt it make more sense if the turret buffed his survivability instead of his damage? Like improving his armor/toughness/whatever. I mean, a DPS buff is useless if you are forced to constanly kite as soon as a mdps jumps you.

Assuming they get a proper armor/toughness buff from the turret, and Guard from a tank, they would be able to remain stationary while applying their dots/debuffs (Coordinated Fire) and then burst with Snipe/M2 or whatever the hell Engies do when trying to burst.

Wouldnt it make more sense for a "stationary" dps class? Or not?

What if they could also use all their skills even while moving, as long as they are within 25ft from their turrets? This way, they would be able to turn (and not give their backs to a WE for example) and Snipe or use any skill that required them to be stationary, as long as they remain within 25ft from the turret.

Again, this is just me brainstorming

[Grimmrog]

As a stationary class, you should become THE most potent thing on the battlefield if allowed to freecast and remain in same position. That is simply not the case, which renders the whole idea of engi being stationary dps null and void imo given the plethora of issues it has

That's the thing though isn't it?

Are we stationary dps? Are we defensive dps? Are we a dot based dps? Are we a utility dps?

Everyone under the sun has their own idea of what the class is suppose to be and do, and that is something that is going to need a bit of discussion.

The original dev's from live were never able to answer that question. Most people started to see engi as utility, because that was the most functional of the spec's.

The whole argument of us being stationary dps came after they added the turret damage buff after 1.4.1 but that was them doing a quick and easy change while ignoring a lot of the key problems. It was a band-aid, that people now see as the classes core mechanic.

You can see a lot of different opinions and play-styles with engi's that played before 1.4, and those that started after.

But lore wise, and skillwise this was the initial idea of the dwarves in general, being more defensive. And that was said even before closed beta began. Some people just want classes to be played their way. But there are other alternates for mobility and pew pew and such. So why should the engineer become one too? The great thing about WAR was that it had unique classes even with the mirroring mechanic. Games get boring real quick if everyone just swpas to the current meta flavour of the month. all clases should have their place and people should play the clases they like and be rewarded for having skill to play their class correctly. Choosing the meta, aka easierst way the mechanics allow is not much skill related and just a cause of imbalance. But it takes away a lot of fun from games and creates monotony.

No the engineer was not meant as utility class. The engier was meant to alter between dingle target dps, AoE DPS and support depending on which pathes the skills went to. But generally turret base playstyle was meant to be the most defensive of them all.

I have a question to all experienced Engies.

If Engie is supposed to be a stationary DPS, wouldnt it make more sense if the turret buffed his survivability instead of his damage? Like improving his armor/toughness/whatever. I mean, a DPS buff is useless if you are forced to constanly kite as soon as a mdps jumps you.

Assuming they get a proper armor/toughness buff from the turret, and Guard from a tank, they would be able to remain stationary while applying their dots/debuffs (Coordinated Fire) and then burst with Snipe/M2 or whatever the hell Engies do when trying to burst.

Wouldnt it make more sense for a "stationary" dps class? Or not?

yes it would, but it would require this defensiveness deeper in the Tinkerer tree to prevent it being mixed too much with the other more offensive trees.

[Karast]

I have a question to all experienced Engies.

If Engie is supposed to be a stationary DPS, wouldnt it make more sense if the turret buffed his survivability instead of his damage? Like improving his armor/toughness/whatever. I mean, a DPS buff is useless if you are forced to constanly kite as soon as a mdps jumps you.

Assuming they get a proper armor/toughness buff from the turret, and Guard from a tank, they would be able to remain stationary while applying their dots/debuffs (Coordinated Fire) and then burst with Snipe/M2 or whatever the hell Engies do when trying to burst.

Wouldnt it make more sense for a "stationary" dps class? Or not?

That sounds good Penril but it wouldn't really work.

This is because unless if you are tinker spamming blunderbuss and a few aoe dots, you cannot dps under pressure.

Set back kills you as a rifle engi, and even as grenade with firebomb, it still seriously hurts you. A few tanks and Mdps on you and you won't be able to do anything. Dot's alone do not give enough pressure, and cast / channels become useless with setback.

It is a little better in T4, but not by much. It would help tinker melee engi's, and it might work if you want to sit in napalm on a point, but overall it doesn't help.

It is pretty easy to tell I am not a fan of stationary engi. It is not the way I have played it traditionally, because it has always been a catch 22.

If you kite you can't dps, if you have guard and defensive stats you can't dps due to setback.

IMO, one of the worst changes they ever did was getting rid of our setback tactic, and putting in ES.

[Penril]

But maybe turrets could give different buffs (like Squig Herder pets) for different playstyles? Not all must be "+20% damage". Examples:

- Bombardment Turret: xxxxxxx and gain +5% crit
- Gun Turret: Increases your damage by 20% and xxxxxxx
- Flame Turret: Increases your armor and toughness by 20% and can not be setback.

Of course, you gain these bonuses only within 25ft of your turret.

[Karast]

But maybe turrets could give different buffs (like Squig Herder pets) for different playstyles? Not all must be "+20% damage". Examples:

- Bombardment Turret: xxxxxxx and gain +5% crit
- Gun Turret: Increases your damage by 20% and xxxxxxx
- Flame Turret: Increases your armor and toughness by 20% and can not be setback.

Of course, you gain these bonuses only within 25ft of your turret.

Better but you would want the setback on rifle not flame. You don't need it as much in tinker.

But now we are talking a complete rebuild of the class mechanic.

[Penril]

Well, i think we all agree that what engie/magus need is a complete overhaul of their mechanic.

And i was only giving those as examples so you got what i meant.

[peterthepan3]

1) Being given armor/toughness doesn't negate from fact Engi - aside from tinkerer - offers nothing. Even making it have godmode won't change the fundamental flaws inherent to the class (lack of a niche, outperformed by other rdps, reliant on a pet easily killed)
2) any buff ought to coincide with increasing range of pet buff. 25ft is nothing at all and impractical in rvr/scens where you are normally moving.

Agree with you re overhaul.

[Karast]

Yeah, when the balance forums open up, and this eventually comes up as a discussion topic. I think it is going to be a hard one, but I look forward to it.

But overall class mechanics aside. I still feel that low hanging fruit like horrible tactics / abilities, and big multi class issues like armor values, will be more important.

It is shocking sometimes how 1-2 tactics or abilities can make or break a class and spec.

[Penril]

I don't think this will be a hard one. Engi/Magus, as well as AM/Sham heal specs should be easy since most people agree they need buffs. Same with Mara/KotBS/Slayer which most people agree need nerfs.

The hard ones will be WL, BO, SM, SW, Dok/WP since the community seems divided on these classes.