[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[Gobtar]

Pretty much agree with Wingz. There is counterplay to it. Perhaps reduce the CD to 5 seconds or make it an M2 - whatever; but to say that it can't be countered by intelligent player/group synergies would be wrong. Marauder's TE is incredibly unreliable as it is based on intelligence, and so to nerf the M1 too much would have a more drastic effect on destro as a faction vs ranged comps than it would order due to lack of pounce.

So what you are saying is that if the Marauder's pull was fixed so that it was more reliable, this morale wouldn't be needed?
The marauder pull has more counterplay, yet it barely works, on live marauders would use a pocket item just so it wouldn't be disrupted. I think that a needing morale to solve a career problem is bad design, especially when this isn't an issue with WLs (Pounch, more reliable fetch (on RoR anyway))

Like I said earlier, from a marauder perspective as long as this is an No-break-on-damage 65' root, it will be a death sentence ability (unless it's something like 1 second), and the counterplay skill required >>>>>>> the skill required to use. It's as much a L2P issue with this ability as it is without it.

[dur3al]

Even if damage on Ensnare/FoF was set to 0 no one (sane) would take SN.

so basically you are saying that SN is the first priority morale 1 for other mdps classes in the game? you can't be serious with that comment - at least not if we are discussing T4 balance.

removing the damage would give both classes the following possibilities:
- offensive morale 1 (sever nerve)
- defensive morale 1 (confusing movements)
- cc morale 1 (ensnare / fof)

This is by far the best solution for it, yes I main a marauder... and why I would do this over reducing the timer is answered below:

Concerning the duration nerf to 5s I can only say that you take about 4s with 100% movement speed to cover the distance as a mara (he has to blow charge, if not the rdps was misspositioning or took the risk), as a WL in 1,5s no matter which movement speed (kinda biased).The 1s you have if everything works out (no stagger, snare etc) is not even enough to cover a snare.

Yes, m2 is the #1 counter to root m1, after keeping 100-150f range. It is higher tier yes but with m2 focused mind your skills have like ~100feet range. The higher tier is justified since the counterplay leaves mara/WL with a lot less opportunities to close a gap and the rdps/healer with 10s of complete cc immunity and double castspeed.

And not only marauder needs to blow charge, but will most likely need to blow anti-snare too, since tanks will obviously keep mdps perma-snared for the most part. Coupled with the fact that TE is completely useless, and fetch is atm better as explained below:

Marauder's TE is incredibly unreliable as it is based on intelligence, and so to nerf the M1 too much would have a more drastic effect on destro as a faction vs ranged comps than it would order due to lack of pounce.

The marauder pull has more counterplay, yet it barely works, on live marauders would use a pocket item just so it wouldn't be disrupted. I think that a needing morale to solve a career problem is bad design, especially when this isn't an issue with WLs (Pounch, more reliable fetch (on RoR anyway)

Apparently for some reason, it was decided to keep TE based in intelligence rather then strength.

[Jaycub]

Aside from what Wingz has already stated, watching your immunities is something a lot of people do. If you have immunity to root you are are allowed to be aggressive for a time. And I think in particular this statement by WIngz might be going past peoples heads...


>I expect cds being blown to make the rdps survive a 10s root. L2P issue #3"


IIR this game is being balanced around high level/communication group play. People saying that the only counter to root is M2 are not thinking about this game in a correct light. You have access to defensive mechanics from your tanks, punts, morales, cc, guard, challenge etc... your healers have specific oh **** moment morales and the like. Even your DPS can help you with knockdown, staggers, pulls, cooldown increasers, etc... You could go on for days explaining all the different things a team can do to deal with someone being M1 rooted, the keyword here being team... you aren't in this game all by yourself.


As for the morale itself, it's obviously much stronger than most m1's in the game, and it's effects are felt very real to any player of any skill/knowledge level. For instance I believe Zealot's talon M1 is in the same league as the mara/WL m1 root, but I think it's effects are a mystery to most in that they don't even realize that might of been what tipped them over the edge. Where with mara/WL m1 it's instantly apparent and your ire is immediately drawn to that goddamn~ WL or mara.

[TenTonHammer]

The marauder pull has more counterplay, yet it barely works, on live marauders would use a pocket item just so it wouldn't be disrupted. I think that a needing morale to solve a career problem is bad design, especially when this isn't an issue with WLs (Pounch, more reliable fetch (on RoR anyway)

Apparently for some reason, it was decided to keep TE based in intelligence rather then strength.

Because Mara is the strongest, most survivable, and versatile mdps in the game


Giving maras a pull that's effectiveness is based on their strength would be absolutely bonkers considering how strong the class already is

[peterthepan3]

If it's purported use is to pull the enemy, then it should do just that; scaling on intelligence and having a RNG chance of being successful is ridiculous. Once the ability is str-based, the class itself (which is pretty OP, imo) can be fine-tuned - now bearing in mind this new change.

[Toldavf]

From my experience playing vs all the ranged groups the morale is essential. Order currently have a premium on the aoe snares a good knight can keep an entire train of des perma snared so in a 6 on 6 situation how do you reach that sw or bw in the back?

Some people might suggest the pull and yeah at times that will work but it will never work vs any good sw and it tends not to work vs a prepared bw either as a quick choking smoke, resolute defence or if that fails a mage bolt will mean they at best they wont be pulled or you wont have the full train on them which will give the tank to guard swap.

Generally using this morale vs any group of order like this still takes co-ordination to make a kill. The standard play being you push aggressively at the start but not recklessly a Mara has to build morale as fast as possible while maintaining some cool downs if possible. So soon as you hit M1 the friendly chosen immediately champ challenges the enemy tank and you FoF your target lets say a SW for this instance you now have your only chance to kill a good kiter and as was mentioned by wings you still have to reach him with both dps to confirm the kill and push them to their healers.

Now as wings mention it takes 4 seconds normally to cross that distance this can be enhanced to 6 seconds with a snare and 9 seconds if you get a knock down for your trouble. Assuming all goes well the target dies and the fight is over shortly after BUT if the target lives due to good cc from team mates or what ever you have blown your only chance to make this play work from that moment on both rdps and both healers will have focused mind ready at this point catching any competent player is impossible your only option besides staggering a back line healer with a zealot is to fold, kite off, get out of combat let them do the same and then try again.

The Op side of this morale is generally seen by people who have no protection at all but generally imo good team work and group composition can counter this morale having a runie or an arch mage as second healer for instance can provide some interesting ranged cc options so unless the ranged group is handing out immunities like candy you will always have options.

Generally though i will say my number 1 victim for flames of fate are people who are already beaten. Running for the war camp and they get caught by the m1 of doom and zerged into the floor.

[navis]

If it's purported use is to pull the enemy, then it should do just that; scaling on intelligence and having a RNG chance of being successful is ridiculous. Once the ability is str-based, the class itself (which is pretty OP, imo) can be fine-tuned - now bearing in mind this new change.

It takes two or maximum 3 tries. There is no penalty to fail the disrupt check from my understanding. Provided there is no Morale anti-CC.

[TenTonHammer]

It was asked before and i dont think that it was awnsered, but what level of play is this nerf directed at?

As wingz and others pointed at in 6v6 these morale's are not issues as their is coordinated counter play, at WBvWB scenarios and what not i really dont see these being a big deal either and we dont care about 1v1

So why nerf these 2 again?

[dur3al]

It was asked before and i dont think that it was awnsered, but what level of play is this nerf directed at?

As wingz and others pointed at in 6v6 these morale's are not issues as their is coordinated counter play, at WBvWB scenarios and what not i really dont see these being a big deal either and we dont care about 1v1

So why nerf these 2 again?

Because - and I'm guessing here - most people in the server plays rdps. Considering that something like ~70% of players playing dps classes are rdps (no trivial blows, quick escape, odjira, don't require guard, many other reasons makes rdps be much stronger and reliable atm, especially in solo play), and most likely over 80% of the "pug" dpsers you can figure out why.

PS: Just finished doing a couple scenarios on my dok.
All scenarios had at least 6 rdps on order side alone.

[Bozzax]

It was asked before and i dont think that it was awnsered, but what level of play is this nerf directed at?

Yep thinking same and in what context is this change pushed.

a) In context of tuning down all OP morales starting with this one?
b) A simple Mara/WL adjustment?
c) In context of a bigger general change to all morale roots / roots? (initially thought this was the case)
d) A stand alone nerf to the "most" op M1? (Is it really?)
e) To buff RDPS generally because this specific morale makes them under perform? (6v6?, 1v1?, ORVR?)
f) To buff order RDPS specifically as destruction still has to deal with pounce and rkds?
g) Some other context which I don't understand?

(I get the damage being to high for a CC M1 but damage is not what makes it over perform at all)

All scenarios had at least 6 rdps on order side alone.

Wouldn't a nerf make it 8+ SWs in every sc as they get even more self sustained? They are pretty much immune to pull and can kite indef 1v1 with RD + M2 and self clnses (CW + M1).