[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[Theseus]

It was asked before and i dont think that it was awnsered, but what level of play is this nerf directed at?

Yep thinking same and in what context is this change pushed.

a) In context of tuning down all OP morales starting with this one?
b) A simple Mara/WL adjustment?
c) In context of a bigger general change to all morale roots / roots? (initially thought this was the case)
d) A stand alone nerf to the "most" op M1? (Is it really?)
e) To buff RDPS generally because this specific morale makes them under perform? (in what setting?)
f) To buff order RDPS specifically as destruction still has to deal with pounce and reds?
g) Some other context which I don't understand?

All scenarios had at least 6 rdps on order side alone.

Wouldn't a nerf make it 8+ SWs in every sc? As they are pretty much immune to pull and can kite indef 1v1 with RD + M2 and self clnses (CW + M1)

As an order MDPS I dont hope we get even more RDPS in SC. Most SC or at least most pug SC order loses ar lost because we have to much RDPS and to less tanks MDPS to defend the bos properly. You cant kite MDPS and defend a bo if at least one Tank stops to think and takes the bo instead of chasing the occupied RDPS. So I would hope, changes wont lead to mor RDPS on orderside.

[Morf]

I think its relevant to look back some months to a caledor woods between enigma and i think fusion, enigma who some would call the best guild with the best players got beaten because a marauder was using flames of fate to guarantee a kill on the sw.
So if the best guild with the best players lost a 6v6 because the sw was permanently dying due to fof then what chance has anyone else got ? how can it be a l2p issue ?

ps if that vid still exists someone link it as it shows exactly why fof/ensnare need changing.

[TenTonHammer]

Well I don't know about that video or that match

But when they themselves come here and say that the ability is fine even though they lost to it


I think that's sufficient justification to avoid change



If we must nerf, why not the damage component?

[Tesq]

Generally using this morale vs any group of order like this still takes co-ordination to make a kill. The standard play being you push aggressively at the start but not recklessly a Mara has to build morale as fast as possible while maintaining some cool downs if possible. So soon as you hit M1 the friendly chosen immediately champ challenges the enemy tank and you FoF your target lets say a SW for this instance you now have your only chance to kill a good kiter and as was mentioned by wings you still have to reach him with both dps to confirm the kill and push them to their healers.

if that's really what happening then the game:

-is not designed for 6vs6 if your only way to catch 1 rdps it's unisg this morales
-or the game have problems that need to be solved then
-or the moral in a balanced enviroment would be over the top.

choose one or more but the fact that comparing this morales to all other it feel over the top is concrete.

[Toldavf]

Tesq whats not op about rdps that can kite indefinitely? Because of the way whirling pin works this is the only method i have found to catch a a good grouped sw.

[Tesq]

there should be moments in which it's easier to catch someone cuz you can't just keep snare and stay out of range that's why every melee have charge and anti snare, the fact that everyone use them defensivly and not offensivly it's a the fail of the game such can be considered be perma snared all the time which is another of those thing ppl bias about from all war history.

i cannot change my mind about the fact if that' the only tool to get 1 rdps it's to use only that moral 1 then the game have a problem which is not discuss about nerf those morales but rather a bigger one ( and im not refering to player but rather game meccanics and the design of momentum) , which of course is what this balance section exist for.
And it's exalty why the way the description is set very well

m1 vs all other moral ones. If you can not catch a rdps this is a symptom of other problem and you know that this game need balances in a lot of aspect.

also as a clousure rule, you are not mean to kill as finale results, final results it's own the obective, if the players run away and do not def the objective then you have alredy won.

[Toldavf]

the problem is with charging in this situation is that the sw can still kite away and make distance. Don't Forget as a mdps closes distances with a sw he is also leaving his tank behind a very dangerous prospect vs a sw, bw and wl combo.

Breaking guard range to over extend like this will result in death.

[Tesq]

the problem is with charging in this situation is that the sw can still kite away and make distance. Don't Forget as a mdps closes distances with a sw he is also leaving his tank behind a very dangerous prospect vs a sw, bw and wl combo.

Breaking guard range to over extend like this will result in death.

i know : snare, self punt, kd, kd etc vs order it's even harder cuz they also have 1 rkd

i know you leave your tank behind that's why i said it's the game flaw not that those morales are balanced. It's where the game failed.

charge was ment to be used as offensively and not defensivly( you know it's called charge!) which is why if it cannot be used it's the game flaw.

the flaw can also being too low avoidance due to how stats work currently etc. Not just only charge, even the fact that charge by it self do not work only if you are moving towards 1 tabbed enemy (league of legend style) or the fact that melee immunity do not also give immunity to all cc rather than only root and snare.

there should not be only 1 solution to make a thing happen if not the game have problem, it dosen't really mean that it's skill it's pure exploiting op stuff which was was always about and it's where it failed.
And you have a very good exemple in the whichbrew thread.

[peterthepan3]

also as a clousure rule, you are not mean to kill as finale results, final results it's own the obective, if the players run away and do not def the objective then you have alredy won.

Subject to opinion: in competitive fights, at least, people would prioritise killing the enemy over taking a flag as the game is a PvP game first and foremost.

There are a variety of different ways to catch a kiter: Zealot stagger, Sorc/Magus M3 stagger, Marauder's M1, Magus stagger, etc. I don't see how this is relevant to whether or not the game revolves around 6v6.

[Tesq]

also as a clousure rule, you are not mean to kill as finale results, final results it's own the obective, if the players run away and do not def the objective then you have alredy won.

Subject to opinion: in competitive fights, at least, people would prioritise killing the enemy over taking a flag as the game is a PvP game first and foremost.

There are a variety of different ways to catch a kiter: Zealot stagger, Sorc/Magus M3 stagger, Marauder's M1, Magus stagger, etc. I don't see how this is relevant to whether or not the game revolves around 6v6.

I also prefer kill which is fun but the aim is not reckless kill in aRVR game which is different than pvp game in the strict sense.
If there are a variety of different way i don't get all this bias for a morales that is cleary over the top of serve nerve and CC which his main direct counter play are stay away ( which is a counter play to anything of course so it can be used as motivation till a certain extent) or keep all your morales to use m2 and only that and just that every 1 min.

then no sy the bias is unjustified :/

6vs6 was refering the fact that it's even possible that this format do not support perfectly every aspect of the game, i can take even this a possibility just to tel it, not want start a crusade or derail the thread, i am more convinced of flaws in game rather than that.