[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[wargrimnir]

1. I think all WL's should not have to spec any tree to get pounce,its already a given ability.

It's the 5pt ability in the Hunter tree. You may be thinking of Fetch, which is a core class ability.

[7rere7]

1. I think all WL's should not have to spec any tree to get pounce,its already a given ability.

It's the 5pt ability in the Hunter tree. You may be thinking of Fetch, which is a core class ability.

Yes your right, I was saying to have pounce not in any tree but just a core ability.

[wargrimnir]

The ability itself is poorly optimized, causing you to land out of range if your target is moving at all. It is also very easy to momentarily justify spamming it, once you land out of range you have the choice either popping Feline's Grace (60s CD 45 AP!) and then Charge (30s CD) to get close enough to snare/CC your target, or save yourself the time and Pounce (30AP) again. While you're using two abilities just to clear off the inevitable CC applied to you, chances are the target you're chasing is running right back into the safety of their allies, making yourself the now-primary target.

In situations where the white lion needs to pounce multiple times on the same target he is either clearly overextending from his group and his guard tank which is a bad decision to begin with, or he is solo and chasing a single enemy trying to run from him.
In the first case: turn back to your group or respectively your new assist target -->This case means there is no need to make pounce any stronger.
In the second case: I believe it has been said multiple times by Developers that RoR is not going to view the game based on 1vs1 situations.

This statement was not made in regards to 1v1, but a group situation in which the role of the WL is to catch players out of position and punish them for it. With the current state of Pounce, it is most optimal when dealing with CC to spam it due to it's low cost and gap closing alone. Your window of opportunity for catching a player out in group situations is rather small. The fix, adding a snare and a cooldown, is intended to supplement the intended utility of the skill, and to relieve both player and enemy from Pounce being used repeatedly.

No to Pet-Pounce:
The pet is too unreliable and the Pounce plus Fetch would be too strong. White lion fetch is already stronger than the marauder equivalent "Terrible Embrace". Everyone can see the marauders 2 second cast building up while the tendrils extend between both enemies. Interrupts, getting out of range or breaking line of sight is often the case. The white lion pet running towards you however is much harder to get away from because of the insane pet speed and if the pet comes from someone on your left or right and then abruptly turns to pull you, not much of a chance.

No to Pounce plus Snare:
I do not feel that the white lion is a week class in the game who needs to be buffed for some reason.
Even if you give Pounce a cooldown, which is in my opinion fully deserved in the spirit of balance, then there is no case to be made for boosting the lion in the same instance by giving him a 65 feet snare. He has his Moral 1 root for that stuff.

Do not compare "mirrored" classes in these discussion forums. The Marauder is a significantly different class, the pull on that class does not require a pet. Nor are they gimped significantly due to the loss of a pet the same way a WL suffers.

The correct group counterplay to Fetch is to focus down the pet, break LoS with the controlling WL, or get out of the 65' range of the WL. Identifying Fetch as a tactic is relatively simple as the WL will not be engaging on the frontlines.

This is not a 65' snare, this is effectively a melee snare as the WL will be significantly further away from his group, leaving him exposed. If less than a 2s snare is required, that would be fine. The intent of the change is to fill the need of the ability, which is an anti-kiting tool. I suggested a snare as a reliable method to engage with their target. Whether it's a snare, or a movement speed boost I don't mind either. I am wary of requiring a M1 to be available as CC immunity exists, which is the same reason I would be wary of a 2s KD.

Keep in mind, any form of CC with this change will now be effective against the WL because they will not be able to simply spam Pounce again. This aspect is what justifies the minor buff.

I think that the Pounce ability is way too overpowered and the player should be made to decide when to use it and when to save it for a better moment.
It should definitely have a cooldown of somekind. In favor of the WL, I would even say that 15 seconds is too long. 10 seconds would be a good measure to still be used frequently enough without being spammable and still maintain the option to dive in and out of a skirmish in a matter of 10 seconds. Even with the cooldown the WL would stay the fastest assisting melee in the game.

The time on the cooldown is something that can be modified, but as I have been experimenting with it for a couple months, even a 15s cooldown is more than manageable. You end up using your anti-kiting tools more often, which brings you more in line with other MDPS. However, without any kind of snare/follow-up, you're often using these tools after pounce if the player is reasonably aware when they see you coming.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

Why not just have the pounce ability go 5 feet past the target instead of stopping 5 feet in front of it? Is this even possible?

[wargrimnir]

Why not just have the pounce ability go 5 feet past the target instead of stopping 5 feet in front of it? Is this even possible?

That would last until someone realized they could run toward the WL to have them overshoot the distance. Also, no I don't think it's currently possible/well understood.

[Stortz]

Pounce should be jump into your pet ability

that way, if you have a lion on you, there's the chance the master will pop on your tail.

First you make your pet tag your opponent, then your pounce makes you jump into your pet's position.
This way, you could make it as a defensive ability as well.
If you use your pet as an anchor, tell him to sit in place, close in n the enemy and then pounce back to safety, jumping to the place you left the lion, preferably close to your allies.

[Jaycub]

What's the reasoning behind 15 second cooldown? Virtually all of the WL abilities that aren't spammable use a 10 second cooldown. Would rather see it revolve around that fact.

[Toldavf]

I believe any cool downs that are added should start at 5 and then be adjusted accordingly in increments of 5 the testing process should be gradual.

[Stalker]

Spoiler:

this is a joke?)))

Not a joke. This is Discussion forums. Read the rules before posting - wargrimnir

[wargrimnir]

Pounce should be jump into your pet ability

that way, if you have a lion on you, there's the chance the master will pop on your tail.

First you make your pet tag your opponent, then your pounce makes you jump into your pet's position.
This way, you could make it as a defensive ability as well.
If you use your pet as an anchor, tell him to sit in place, close in n the enemy and then pounce back to safety, jumping to the place you left the lion, preferably close to your allies.

I like using your pet as a defensive target, and it might make more sense as far as what they're able to accomplish with the abilities. However the second part I don't expect to happen very often as engaging without your pet would badly gimp your DPS output. I'll add this as an option to the second proposal.

What's the reasoning behind 15 second cooldown? Virtually all of the WL abilities that aren't spammable use a 10 second cooldown. Would rather see it revolve around that fact.

I believe any cool downs that are added should start at 5 and then be adjusted accordingly in increments of 5 the testing process should be gradual.

I ended up at 15s through testing the ability in-game using an addon at various CD levels. 15s was a comfortable spot, 10s seemed like it was up a little too often for the enemy to have a significant reaction time to my sudden change in position. 5s made no noticeable difference. The proposal for the cooldown can be adjusted, I'm not hard set on any of the values really.