[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Daknallbomb]

Correct me If iam wrong. 9 engis can place 9 kegs and all Star there and all get 2700 life all 2 sec? If iam right i think we dont need a discussion or Did i understand it wrong?

[CegeePegee]

Kegs may have stacked on live but its my recollection that engies were much weaker on live so that argument seems moot now. The main issue isn't even the fact that the kegs heal out of group, its the stacking that wreaks havoc in oRvR. Pit of Shades/Rain of Fire got the nerfbat and no longer stack bc they were just too powerful in oRvR, I fail to see how this is different . These kegs need to NOT stack, its inconsistent with overall gameplay and is makes the keg seriously overpowered.

[Glorian]

Correct me If iam wrong. 9 engis can place 9 kegs and all Star there and all get 2700 life all 2 sec? If iam right i think we dont need a discussion or Did i understand it wrong?

Every 3 seconds.

And I had warbands with 16 Engineers in T3, all Kegs out and Destro simply ran over us.
Knocked half away, killed the rest.

[blaqwar]

i think its' better move from the first point which keg differents from live and some which not, that make it better:

1) as any other skill which provide regen (that goes for exemple for chosen/kobs regen aura too) they can crit (with base crit chance for heals being 10%+5% due kobs tactic), this was differently from live. Where these type of effect didn't critted.

2) over ground effect such dissoving mist /engi counterpart and sh/am pot these type of skill cannot be removed due to have a long CD and not being moveable around ; such is keg.
Moreover they all also have a target cap (9ppl) and dosen't stack in case of dissolving mist and engi equivalent.

3) i am not sure if either keg stacked or not in live ( i think not due to point 2)

4) but regardless the chance of 10-15% crit that engi have coupled with the fact that regen ingore heal debuff make it quite powerfull

5) keg it's spambale ( in the sense : A) cannot be removed B)when duration end can be reactive immidiatly and in addition to that it have 5 sec of redeploy pre the duration end)

My solution would be 9 as cap limit, AOE regen, but not make it stackable.
A) this way multiple keg end became a X value for the whole warband if they are positioned well.( 2x keg heal 18 ppl ingoreing heal debuff instead 9 with the double of the value).
B)due to point A to either preserve the engi to remain relevant for wb play but also do not allow those situation where in close space the only ppl to take dmg are tanks which make the stack of the keg a very easy and op tools.(all stack; all ingore heal debuff, only 8-9 take taking aoe and keg are healing only those with out any countermeasure).
C) they still can crit and benefith from kobs crit increase (now 15% vs 20% pre nerf---> crit give 50% of the add value)
D) restric keg to party only dosen't make sense due to 1) magus mirror effect (magus have problems with its mirror but of other type) and 2)skill intent which is of course to support the aoe play of the wb (in fact it's on the aoe mastery it's neither core nor onto another mastery; regardless it feels as a too heavy nerf ( remove the chance to use it outside the party and either lower indirectly the cap to 6 ppl).
E) as said aegis have its own problem but rather than mirroring any implamantion would be better fix that directly instead.

Do you have any proof for 1), 4)?
If you're not sure about 3) then don't bring it into a discussion, simple.

I have no clue what your calculation is at c), Dirty Tricks is 5%. Encouraged Aim increases opponent's chance to be crit so I can't see how that affects the Keg. But yes, the KotBS can buff their party's chance to crit with heals by 5% and this affects the Keg.

The funny thing is that you could remove the Keg from the game and the Engineer warband viability would be unaffected. That's because Engi's don't get a spot in the WB because of the Keg, mostly because it's a lackluster ability UNLESS you build a WB around it and the Engi's potential to entrench themselves - BT warbands for example. Removing keg would make Dwarf/Engineer heavy warbands weaker but it would barely affect any optimised/meta warbands.

In the open field in ORvR combat the Keg doesn't do much. There's a lot of movement and a lot of burst damage from several sources where the healing of the Keg will be somewhat irrelevant. Sure it helps, but so does something like Khaine's Refreshment/Martyr's Blessing and how much usage does that get over focused party heals that do a much better job?

Where the keg shines is entrenched warfare, some the two careers should excell at. Form a warband around area denial, throw in a few kegs and they'll do a decent amount of healing - bolstering the defensive/immovable aspect of the group.

It's excellent in PuG on PuG combat as well, because of how disorganised damage and focus tends to be, but I don't think that needs to be discussed. If you look at how Keg performs in organised small-scale you'll see it's hardly worth mentioning. The best counter to it is focused burst damage, something 6 mans excell at. In addition small-scale fights tend to be quite mobile, something Engineers don't deal with very well, Keg included.

Edit: I also don't see why out of group healing is an issue. RoR is balanced around groups, premade play. How does the Engineer healing people out of his group (PuGs effectively) an issue? Or do people think that in warband play the Kegs crosshealing people is an issue (effectively placing a Pious Restoration on random 9 people)?

To be honest, it feels to me like this is an issue where PuGs whine about something that seems powerful in a PuG environment (like the WP/DoK whining after the ex changes). That and how effective BT WBs can be. Is a stacked Engineer warband too powerful in the current environment?

[Tankbeardz]

Spoiler:

This thread is super pointless. Leave keg alone...I mean, REALLY?!

Explain why it is pointless please - Penril

[peterthepan3]

Only really excels against disorganised groups (what a surprise), even if stacked. Good opposition will still steamroll a group of engineers.

Also - punt the engineer away from his keg? Bg/chosen excel at this.


Personally I see nothing wrong with it: it is gimmicky (have to be defensive to capitalise on it = less dmg ), and only really shines against pugs. Its unique and should be left as such.

Also if a wb is stacking engineers with kegs then they lack any real sustained damage/heal debuff.

[Daknallbomb]

Correct me If iam wrong. 9 engis can place 9 kegs and all Star there and all get 2700 life all 2 sec? If iam right i think we dont need a discussion or Did i understand it wrong?

Every 3 seconds.

And I had warbands with 16 Engineers in T3, all Kegs out and Destro simply ran over us.
Knocked half away, killed the rest.

hmmm was there the chance with tinkerer flametower disturp bonus ? i think for a def in a lord room or so its rly imbalanced .
cause they can be to autonom . no healer needed in a def fight in a room where a lot of other ppl are . there is no equivalent for that . it would be good much more blanced in just mayb 3 kegs cab stack its enough for a grp dat plays with 2 engis or 3 . but that one skill stack 9 times hmmmm dont like it . but its theoretical never testet somethiong like that in a keep fight or so

[Esperflame]

Honestly a real easy way to fix the stacking issue would be to increase the cooldown. Making it heal party only won't fix anything because then you will see four engie's in one party tanking everything because they never die due to massive armor (I mean seriously? 4k armor in light?), Flame Turrets giving them 32% Dodge/Disrupt. How the hell are we supposed to kill an engie anymore? They're supposed to be a semi-squishy dps class!

[Tankbeardz]

Spoiler:

There is no issue. And comparing Pit of Shades / Reign of Fire to Keg. LoL, I've seen it all.

Explain why - Penril

[CegeePegee]

Spoiler:

There is no issue. And comparing Pit of Shades / Reign of Fire to Keg. LoL, I've seen it all.

If you're going to lol you have to explain yourself. Otherwise you're just being a troll.

Leave the moderation to me - Penril