Resolute Defenses redesigned

[Luth]

maybee you can split to dont get morale dumped when you see your enemy pop RD and charge for morale dump? you dont need to stay in one blob everytime

Your former post suggests that you obviously didn't read the thread and just posted something, which is against the extended rules of this forum and now you pull out some weird "countermeassure" to ezmode RD morale bombing (which has btw nothing to do with RD, only bombing). As it is obvious that you just made this up, i won't ask you, how you coordinate, split up and maneuver your whole warband in max. 1-2 seconds after a warband member noticed the RD buff on the enemies (with buff, communications and general lag involved, probably less).

[Luth]

Spoiler:

Did you not read my post? It especially matters in 'zerg' fights. How can't you see, it allows for uninterruptable morale dumps. If this 'doesn't matter', then I really don't know what matters to you in RvR.

Maybe the issue isnt RD in those situations but coordinating morale drops ?
And by what do you mean uninteruptable ? raze spam ? sorc focus mind bombing ? if so and we are talking about off morales and morale bombing they can be interupted with or without RD, by an engi tossing a flashbang grenade on you, tanks taunting, think wl has an aoe interupt to and there are prolly others.
Just sounds like the ppl you are fighting suck

With "uninterruptible" he means that the players who run towards you, can't be stopped because they are CC immune and can offload their (instant) morale damage without a chance to stop at least a part of the warband.

[Karast]

Did you not read my post? It especially matters in 'zerg' fights. How can't you see, it allows for uninterruptable morale dumps. If this 'doesn't matter', then I really don't know what matters to you in RvR.

Maybe the issue isnt RD in those situations but coordinating morale drops ?
And by what do you mean uninteruptable ? raze spam ? sorc focus mind bombing ? if so and we are talking about off morales and morale bombing they can be interupted with or without RD, by an engi tossing a flashbang grenade on you, tanks taunting, think wl has an aoe interupt to and there are prolly others.
Just sounds like the ppl you are fighting suck

Raze is not the only kind of morale bomb. Other types of morale abilities cannot be interrupted since they deal damage instantly, for example axe slam / ruin and destruction / great fang / deafening bellow. People use raze right now because it is fast and easy. It works with tank heavy comps, and it works well when fighting open warbands, and when hitting quickly in a surprise attack.

But it is counter-able as you said with interrupts and CC when RD is not used. Other morale bombs cannot be interrupt since they are not cast or channels. Your best bet to counter them is to drop hard CC as soon as the first one 1-2 go off. Even the best warband on voice coms have issues with lag and latency, so if you get a good AoE KB or stagger off you can spread the damage and weaken the bomb.

But if they lead in with RD your can't stop it, even if you watch for it. Splitting up doesn't work since collision works against you and you will be facing enemy CC at the same time.

This is why RD can be so powerful in WB play and is often considered a must. It makes and breaks fights. 1 warband having it up while the other is on CD is often the difference between winning and losing a fight.

That is a significant amount of power to place in a renown ability. While I agree with the OP on the fact that RD is far too strong. I am not keen on his proposed solution, unless the proposed halfed damage work on morale abilities as well.

I would rather see RD reworked into a CC break more similar to Juggernaut on tanks. It still meets the original purpose of preventing chain CC, but changes it from a proactive to reactive skill, preventing unstoppable morale dumps, and kiting issues.

One thing that might need to be considered is how people are actually reacting to RD to the effect that some people use addons / macro strings to intentionally monitor and check for up time on RD. The argument that watching for RD is skilled play falls out the window when it is automated by addon use. But that may be a slightly different issue, not fit for discussion here. I'm not sure where discussion on addon use and how they effect balance issues should be discussed.

[Wdova]

Rd is available to everyone. It can be counterplayed simply by using it too. Destro side is more forced to use it thanks to fact they need to face 2 ranged knockdowns and pouncing WLs. Everytime I see someone pop RD i detant and kite or just ignore for its duration. It can help catch kitters which are normaly unkatchable. For me RD is fine and I dont see any issue anyone using it.

Argument about morale pump is irelevant. Staying too much blobed in a warband is just bad idea in general unles you must enter keep by main gate. Bloobed groups are heaven for magus/engi and BW/sorc aoeing. If wb is wiped by single morale pump they should rething theyr gameplay and positioning. If you see enemy wb poping RD just back up , split a bit and keep cc's until it ends. They will kill some with morale pump but much less than if you are all blobed in one place.

[wargrimnir]

This topic has been open for a whole two days with 54 posts, and a whole pile of bad arguments. Stay on topic.

Issues
1. Makes everyone to use it.
RD is ultimate answer to all obstacles someone could meet at the battlefield. You want to charge into enemy line – RD. You want to follow your dps as a tank – RD. You want to make sure that your victim won't escape after you jump form the shadows – RD. It kill creativity and make any other skills incorporated into our toons unimportant.

2. No counter play/Easy to use.
RD is impossible to counter. When RD is up no cc works. So someone with RD don't need to pay any attention to this part of game and can focus on dpsing. And you need to sacrifice only one GCD for this.

3. Poor reward/risk ratio.
There is no risk in using RD. And this skill increase your damage potential. It should be defensive tool (Resolute Defenses right?).

Solution
And something like this to all level of RD:
When RD is up your dmg is halved.

This way RD will be engage/disengage tool. Will have some risk incorporated into it. And will need carefully evaluation when to use it (higher difficulty level).

If you are addressing one of the three points made, specify which.

If you are addressing the proposed solution, it must be replaced by a different solution, not outright refused.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Solution
And something like this to all level of RD:
When RD is up your dmg is halved.

This way RD will be engage/disengage tool. Will have some risk incorporated into it. And will need carefully evaluation when to use it (higher difficulty level).

RD as a escape tool is still problematic. This gives kiting classes another way of getting out situations even if it's purely used as a defensive tool. Those classes allready have the option to slot Focused Mind. Roots, Self punts etz.
And also, we want fighting in this game and not more ways to avoid fights.

I sugest RD becomes a passive that reduce the times of Staggers and Knockdown by 10% per level of RD up to 4 ranks.

[TenTonHammer]

Spoiler:

Solution
And something like this to all level of RD:
When RD is up your dmg is halved.

This way RD will be engage/disengage tool. Will have some risk incorporated into it. And will need carefully evaluation when to use it (higher difficulty level).

RD as a escape tool is still problematic. This gives kiting classes another way of getting out situations even if it's purely used as a defensive tool. Those classes allready have the option to slot Focused Mind. Roots, Self punts etz.
And also, we want fighting in this game and not more ways to avoid fights.

I sugest RD becomes a passive that reduce the times of Staggers and Knockdown by 10% per level of RD up to 4 ranks.

What about disarms?

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

Solution
And something like this to all level of RD:
When RD is up your dmg is halved.

This way RD will be engage/disengage tool. Will have some risk incorporated into it. And will need carefully evaluation when to use it (higher difficulty level).

RD as a escape tool is still problematic. This gives kiting classes another way of getting out situations even if it's purely used as a defensive tool. Those classes allready have the option to slot Focused Mind. Roots, Self punts etz.
And also, we want fighting in this game and not more ways to avoid fights.

I sugest RD becomes a passive that reduce the times of Staggers and Knockdown by 10% per level of RD up to 4 ranks.

What about disarms?

Disarms, Silence and Roots can be cleansed and you are still able to use FM while under these effects.
Those CC's need a buff if anything.

[catholicism198]

If this is an attack on "meta?" kite groups then you should know that altering/removing RD will not change that. They play those Careers for a reason- They can already RKD, Snare, Punt, Self Punt, and Stagger you- so removing it will only make it harder for you to close the gap.

1. People use it because of the outrageous about of CC that is in this game- everyone and their mothers can CC you to death.
4-5 second silences, Ranged AE knock backs, Melee AE knock backs, 6-8 second 100ft ranged staggers, 65ft AE staggers, AE melee stagers, AE roots, 5-10 second ranged and melee (single and AE) (non breakable) roots, risk-free pulls... There is no "flavor" when Careers have access to two or more of these...when there is overlap.

2. No counter play? Is there counter play to being stun locked, rooted + AP drained for the whole fight? Resolute Defense IS the counter play.

3. Poor risk? It's more than just a GDC. Risk/reward is built right into the renown system. Spending 10-20-30 points for Resolute Defense is a risk in itself as it means your crit defense, chance to block/parry/disrupt is reduced or that your other stats suffer because you cannot spend points to boost them- extra wounds keep you up for a few hits- primary stat to increase your burst- crit stacking

Since it's required...an alternative would be to reduce the immunity from 10 to 5 and 15 to 10 seconds.

[Stmichael1989]

Renown abilities like RD are very difficult to truly balance due to the wide varieties of classes and applications in this game. The more frequent the fights are, with scenarios being on the high end and random roaming on the low end, the less powerful RD is due to its cooldown. Even at rank 3 (which is an incredibly high 30 point cost), it's 15 seconds of immunity every 2 minutes. That's one unimpeded initiation or disengagement every 2 minutes for 30 renown points. In a scenario setting, that's nothing to write home about.

However, in an open RvR roaming setting, that can make all the difference. There's almost guaranteed to be at least 2 minutes between any given fight in open RvR, and in that case RD becomes a very strong tool. Being able to guarantee that your opening rotation goes off unimpeded or that you can make a clean escape in every fight is a huge deal.

When it comes down to it though, I think the high cost of rank 3 RD is what balances it. 20 points will buy you 18% parry or dodge/disrupt, which is always active and VERY strong. RD is a 1 shot ability that must be used proactively (doesn't remove existing CC) and costs 30 points to get a reasonable cooldown. It doesn't have a counter play because it already is a counter to CC, which is overly abundant in this game.

I'd say it's fine as is.