[BG] Utility discussion

[th3gatekeeper]

you know all these buff/debuff are second job for tanks, right?
taking damage at frontline and providing wall to backline is their first job.
also distracting, blocking view, chasing off ranges etc, that all come from survivability of tank.
and BG is one of best survivalist, even with 2h.

maybe, BG were designed as selfish, having least grp util in destro tank archetype, like SM in order.
high population of chosen, BO is also factor that WB look for them first.
that doesn't mean BG sux

This would only hold true, if Chosen and BO werent or couldnt be tanky enough. Then the pros vs cons would be "tanky vs group utility".

At this point though, any of the three tanks can easily spec to be tanky enough where its never a problem. So the "BG is one of best survivalist" arguments really doesnt add any value.

I mean heck, BG could literally be immortal and I bet they still wouldnt be picked for warbands... Why? No group utility. I doubt an Order line is going to be pushed back from 1 BG who can "tank" better than a Chosen or BO... You need the party to push the frontline, to then cause order to get pushed back.

In order to do that, you need to provide the party with benefits to help them sustain the damage - which is why Chosen morale pump + m4 (or even m3) is preferred for warbands. You have that + the auras which gives AWESOME bonuses like toughness/resists - which again - all "aid" in your party ability to take damage..

So in order for the BG to be considered a worthwhile tank in Warbands, he needs to offer different benefits than a Chosen or BO that makes it more a toss up... Heck as it stands right now, every group will run 1 Chosen hands down. So the question becomes (really) what can the BG bring to the group that might be appealing OVER the BO THAT THE CHOSEN DOESNT ALREADY DO.

Thats really the issue here.

In isolation, I think the BG is in "pretty good" shape - minus a few things. Like the most "costly" guard damage mititgation ability/tactic.

However the fact that there is so much overlap with other classes, really begs the question as to WHY even bring a BG into the party at all.

[anarchypark]

here comes again.
Chosen is OP, you want BG to be OP level.
I recommend to read previous posts.
and it's players skill whether putting that extra survivability in good use or wasting.
dps has to hit, tank has to take dmg.

[th3gatekeeper]

here comes again.
Chosen is OP, you want BG to be OP level.
I recommend to read previous posts.
and it's players skill whether putting that extra survivability in good use or wasting.
dps has to hit, tank has to take dmg.

Here it comes again... Actually I have NEVER said that I want BG to be "OP Level" in fact every single 1 of my "buffs" is also accompanied by a nerf of the same thing. I have also been saying to merely MOVE AROUND his benefits so there is less overlap with the other tanks.

I have also said that making Chosen Hastened Dismissal a 2H only is a good idea (i.e. a chosen nerf). So.... Yeah....

I dont see why BG has to have so much overlap with Chosen/Mara and asking for things to be moved around so that is less overlap, all the sudden makes the BG "OP Level".

This is just silly and minimizes many players genuine feedback about how to make this class work. Its not an easy solution, if it were, it would have been done already. BG literally just "doesnt belong" where as eventhough the IB isnt as good as Knight either... its still a viable option where as BG really doesnt offer anything to the group that it doesnt already have.

[roadkillrobin]

BO brings much more utillity in a warband then Morale pump.

You got AoE snare. Boosting stats that Chosen can't like Weapomskill. Immunity timers. AP boost. Magic dmg reduction that stacks with resistance. And with Beastord set you even got acess to a pretty decent AoE Armor debuffing capabillity.
In small scale you also get acess to a tank that can dish out **** tons of damage while still having acess to good buffs and debuffs. Something peoplee seem to forget is that dmg is also utillity that tanks bring to the table.

The big one is the AoE snare tho. Thats something the class brings that Chosen can't do and is essential for good performance.

Even if you swapped the morale tactic with BG for outgoin healdebuff, I would still bring a BO over a BG.

But would you bring a BO over a second Chosen for double auras? That's a harder choice if they didn't have pump.

No it's not a hard decision, for a couple of reasons. 2 Chosens means you will lose the spammeble AoE snare. It means you will lose the dps boosting utillity that BO brings aswell as it's really good debuffs. Also Chosens arn't KOTBS. After the 2nd Aura (resist+toughness) you get very little benefits from running any more Auras tbh. The other ones are just extrenly minor in comparison to what KOTBS can do when they slot the Aura tactics.

[Drudge]

Not sure whats going on here entirely but I was actually looking at the BG skills because i wanted a destro 2H tank. And honestly it makes perfect sense, a lot of his skills destroy casters and using a 2H weap on top of it. He is the magic tank thats his role thats his utility.

[th3gatekeeper]

Not sure whats going on here entirely but I was actually looking at the BG skills because i wanted a destro 2H tank. And honestly it makes perfect sense, a lot of his skills destroy casters and using a 2H weap on top of it. He is the magic tank thats his role thats his utility.

What is going on here is looking at the BG viability in warbands. Isolated, he is in a good spot. However you get a party that has a Mara and a Chosen and what does the BG bring to that group? Nothing...

Wounds debuff - Mara has better ST, Chosen has better AoE (can cast at beginning of fight)
Toughness - Chosen aura + Mara debuff
Super Punt? - Chosen has when slotted.
Knock Down? - Only SNB BG gets this which means they cant get CD and also Chosen has a 3 sec version not restricted to SnB.
CD? Ok, then no KD... And you are squishy and likely WONT have AoE Snare.
etc. etc.

So thats ONE issue - the "overlap" of benefits with other classes makes him moot in many group settings.


Another issue is the "Guard Damage Mitigation" issue. Where the BG has to spend the MOST # of mastery points to get basic guard damage mitigation - something that most tanks have built in to their class (such as Chosen Suppression) Or have to spend very little Mastery to get (such as IB's Oathbound which gives 25% fixed parry + provides those to its "protector" as well, or a class like SM which gets wall of darting steel (50% parry) PLUS Perfect Defenses as a tier 1 tactic (block and parry %).

So it stands to reason that if the BG has to spend the most, they should arguably have the strongest right?

I know SOME people in here (cough anarchypark cough) think that because we are saying all this, it means we all want BG to be a Super OP tank like the Chosen/Knight.


The REALITY is, we merely want a series of nerfs+buffs+things MOVED AROUND so that:
- BGs "unique benefits are not all mutually exclusive" (i.e. AoE Snare + CD + Knock Down)
- BGs "Guard damage mitigation" is increased both inherent to its class (such as swapping Elite Training with Mind Killer), Then Anger Drives me either being buffed and staying where it is now, OR slightly nerfed but moving to t1.





So in reality here is "kinda" what people are asking for:
- Knock Down triggered off Parry (buff) however now it costs Hate instead of AP (nerf). (both a buff and a nerf).
- Due to THIS, Hate on 2H spec would need to be adjusted so making CD cost 20 Hate (down from 30) seems fair.
- Wave of Scorn swapped with Force of Fury (makes AoE Snare more accessible to all builds - buff, however makes the -crit % harder - nerf). So a 2H spec is "less tanky" but more party utility.
- Anger Drives Me. My favorite here would merely make the Parry % also apply to your "dark protector". It costs the most mastery, so it should mimic/be stronger than IB's Oathbound which DOESNT scale on grudge and gives 25% parry to both you and "protector". I think that "fair").
- Anger Drives Me. An alternative would be to keep it at 3% parry per 10 for YOURSELF ONLY, and merely make it a tier 1 and swap with Terrifying Foe. (Again, all based on cost/benefits). Either of these seem "inline" with other tanks options.
- Shielding Anger. This is too strong. Should be moved to tier 1 and made 1% per 10 hate. (Calming Winds (SM) is tier 2 and provides 10/20% depending on stance). So @ tier 1 = 10% disrupt max seems "fair".
- Shielding Anger. The Alternative here is to make it 2% per 10 hate and @ tier 2, however now you have to figure out what to do with outgoing heal debuff (current tier 2 tactic), which I would THEN Swap Elite Training and Mind Killer (so elite training is inherent to BG), and make the 50% outgoing heal debuff inherent to Mind Killer (not requiring a tactic) and instead make "Soul Killer" a tier 1 tactic that now "Mind Killer can now stack up to 3x". So net zero, but Mind Killer is less of a "debuff" unless you tactic it.

The only "unknown" is once you move Shielding Anger off tier 3, what to do with that slot... Unstoppable Fury is too weak, so you would need to address that. But all of these changes are ALL buffs+nerfs to everything or made "inline" with OTHER (non Chosen/Knight) tanks. So NOW a BG brings multiple things to the table that other tanks cannot offer without it being a "net buff" to the class.

Overall this puts BG in a good spot. It STILL lacks "party utility" but it does spread things around a little better IMO.

[Tesq]

BG dont need a high parry as chosen for exemple btw because toughness tactic (which also reduces guard dmg so fix avoidance MAD should be enugh for both 2h/s+b set up.
2h BG dont have problem guard tough, it's when it get focus pretty hard that get down, hence the avoidance fix.

[roadkillrobin]

Since when does toughness affect guard damage?

[Morf]

Not much is wrong with BG, i struggle to understand why ppl believe they need SO many changes, i have said my piece on the matter a few times in the past and will do so again and i say this as someone who has a geared bg and have actively played it in rvr, pug sc and competitive 6v6 bs.

What imo is an issue is no 2h knock down as a dps bg and the hate cost of skills (especially when comparing to ib).
If blade of ruin was a 2h kd with the similar rules as spiteful slam (30 hate - 1 sec kd / 60 hate - 2 sec kd / 90 hate - 3 sec kd) reason being not just a standard 3 sec kd is due to its place in malice tree, general rule of tank kd's is a 10 point mastery ability so a direct mirror to others (imo) would be wrong and i dont see moving enraged beating or crimson death a valid option as both of these skills are pretty powerful and deserving of there current mastery place.

With hate costs this directly affects exile and spiteful slam so to be spamming hate spending abilities with high cost will hurt your chances of being able to apply decent CC at the right time in terms of knocking a tank away for the full distance or knocking down a target for the full duration, this is even more evident as a 2h bg as you will be using crimson death and furious howl off cd which together will cost you 60 hate, then if you add to that the hate cost of shield of rage, choking fury, pitless strike, take into consideration bolstering anger draining hate and tactics that gain the highest benefit at max hate ( shielding anger, anger drives me and terirfying foe) and also crush the weak crit debuff you will be spending alot of hate and be needing to have high hate to take the most from the tactics/buffs and debuffs you are using, ofc you will not be using every one of these.

If the hate cost of a few skills was slightly reduced and blade of ruin a kd while wielding a great weapon i believe bg would be perfectly fine, enough to rival chosen and bo setup ? prolly not but buffing bg to rival that setup isnt something i think is a good thing, i believe looking at tank aoe snares is the way to go in terms of having all 3 tanks of each realm closer together to compete for the 2 tank spots of a group.

[Tesq]

Since when does toughness affect guard damage?

for what i know is the only thing which reduces guard dmg since armor dont.