[Pending Final Review] Crow Controll effects nerf

[catholicism198]

While I'm not opposed to adjusting CC, it's hard to argue in favor or against without knowing if we're discussing overall changes for SCs, oRVR, blob vs. blob, or 6v6...

[Aurandilaz]

1-no differece between tanks KD and damage dealers KD: this is important as the difference meant choices! and also meant tank had to take KD instead other tools. This leaded to the BO/SM problem about their KD be so high (problem that there isn't here). But currently with all the KD like this the game is filled with an abbundance of 3sec KD and some tanks can totally avoid take the KD which is the strongest form of CC in the game which also lead to problem two

You forget to mention that the original purpose of the CC patch was to make the game easier to understand, instead of giving 24 classes 24 different stagger/KD/silence/root variants, they simplified the system. It was bad before, with people trying to remember which class had how many seconds of CC available at hand and which class had less CC and so on...
I would shoot you this question/problem back; why should there be a difference in KD duration between tank and dps? After all, all tank careers have one dedicated mastery tree that more or less aims towards being like any other dps class. Just as healers have mastery trees enabling them to act like dps, so do tanks. So why should they not deserve same "KD rights" as other dps classes?
You also claim "BO/SM problem about high KD"? What is this supposed to mean? They have a dmg dealing mastery tree, so why should they not enjoy similar KD potential as other damage dealing classes?
"Abundance of 3 sec KD"; now how is this a problem? Both sides have vast arsenal of KD, so it's hardly imbalanced. And having simplified array of 3 sec KD spread over both sides is better than having complex variations like back on live, trying to remember which class had 2 sec, which 3 sec, which 4 sec etcetera...

2-The duration of KD and silence/disarm should not be the same, pre 1.4.7 disarrm and silence on dd/rdd were 1 sec higer than their KD. This was meant to have to give a for all situation CC (on tanks with 3 sec KD) and some specific CC regarding what you are facing(still 3 sec like disarm or silence but less strong form of crow controll).
Atm if you can use a 3 sec KD is always a better pick than a silence /disarm /and now even 3sec stag basically.
This should had been only worth for tanks (due the fact they have to deal with a lot of stuff regard their group).
Silence/disarm atm give the same immunity of a stag or a KD and being a 3 sec KD a lot better cuz is basically a root(not breakable ) + silence/disarm every DD class both melee or ranged with access to KD is >>> than any with only acces to disarm of root. (aka BW have 3 sec kD and 3 sec silece vs sorc only having 3 sec disarm ; what's wrong here is the KD that should be 2 second while both disarm and silence should eb 3 sec)

Should - should - should? You are handing out your opinions, instead of actually stating hard facts.
"Only worth for tanks"? Another opinion, instead of an actual fact. Other classes also "have to deal with lot of stuff".
Yes, 3 sec KD is better than 3 sec silence, no point arguing there. But it should be considered that ideally the KD is the preferred form of CC, with Disarm/Silence being the "Plan B" alternative. Thus having a disarm at hand should be considered as an "ace in the sleeve", since pretty much most classes roll out with opening KDs, and the silence that comes later is just an icing on the cake.
As for BW, they have to spec for that 3 sec KD. Sorc gains 3 sec disarm, which however is not insta cast like BW KD. Both of them have access to similar silence however. Furthermore, the balance between BWvsSorc is a can of worms better reserved for some other day. Also, most BWs do not run with the KD, simply because it is far from being an ideal spec, and better easier alternatives with lower opportunity costs are available on Order side.




Your argument basically boils to "should should should" without explaining properly and thoroughly "why why why". Instead of actually highlighting some real problem with the game's CC status quo, you offer your opinions on how things SHOULD be according to your opinion.

[Tesq]

@aurandilaz

1) as wrote in response to scrilian quote there is not much to understand:

tank KD are 3+ sec, the rest are 2 sec: all silence and disarm should be 3 sec (exept morales as even currently they have different duration criteria).

2- i answered this to scrilian too, the main problems are A) abbundance B) too easy build melee train around tank be able to drop 3 sec KD cuz melee can get em, C) too many 3 sec kd around make badder 3 sec silence and disarm and while this could be fix by make silence/disarm 4 sec that's is just a buff to cc while the problem here is opposide, be the cc system hard at the point the game need an hard counter as RD (etc read the previously post). D) read that post for the rest not gona rewrite all here

Also all KD 2 sec is extremist as there is need to some form of balance break BUT provide is not spamable so 3+ sec KD is fine if there is a trade off for it in build your character (melee dont really have this as all they do is doing dmg dmg dmg, tanks need to pick between 3 mstery where one is offensive, 1 is def and 1 is supp more or less or mixed a bit but still dps have just

offensive support, 1 st maswtery, 1 aoe mastery --> all dmghere so no, dps should not get the same KD as tank because they do not have any trade off for it.

2- BO /Sm problem in live was have the KD/KB too high because melee at the time had 2 sec KD and not 3 sec KD; on ror the KD is accessible the same way as other tanks but wonder why no BO/SM spec it atm (or anyway is suboptimal for small scale so much).... maybe because they can can passby, if melee loose the 3 sec KD BO/SM should probably get their or the party would loose one 3 sec KD or new party comp will open for IB/BG in place of either them or kobs/CH ; this mean they will have to indirect nerf themself as mastery point are not infinite for pick up the KD. This mean choice/build variety etc as what i wrote in scrilian quote so read it there.

3- the abbundace is a problem first and foremost because when all the KD becamed 3 sec tank could dropped their in favour of melee one which make the power creep of 1 party raise and as said have a permanent buff to dmg is better than bring a 4 or 5 sec kd since they have a CD and you can only have one due party composition mostly SO the number of party 3 sec KD remained the same but the overall party dmg/support from tank raised.


also there is nothing hard

ib/BG 4 and 5 sec cd
other tank 3+
all dd/rdd 2 sec

these are 3 value for KD and possible there should be scaling value for stag and etc; now i limited the thread to some cc and not all for obvious reasons. But scaling is required if you wanna have balance.
This is not really hard to grasp, i dont take this seriouslysy this feel bias...they are 3 values... and tehre were 3 values even before and not 24 values for KD.

4-In theory yes kd should be generally 1 sec lower, in practise not; because tank are slow and with no snare immunity ( exept rd problem we are trying to solve) if a tank reach a rdps/healer he deserve a 3 sec KD also if 3 sec KD are limited to tank only this mean you will potentially have 1 or 2 based on group composition which mean with 20 sec each the number of 3 sec KD is limited and so other form of cc can be used in his place; 3 sec disarm and silence are exatly as the KD, the fact that they do not limit the movement is ,in some cases as dot which proc on movement (chosen/IB/WH/WE), better under snare and regardless silence and disarm of 3 sec sit in a situation in this way between 3 sec KD and 2 sec KD where the limitation is that KD work vs any class; silence and disarm will work only vs either melee or caster but is 1 sec higer (with tank KD being the balance breaker)
Basically tank KD is a balance breaker which should be high limited inside the party to 1-2 ppl with a cd of 20 sec while other are tools in abbundance: 2 sec KD and 3 sec silence/disarm (basically filler when the strong cc is not up). As i said everything have a coldown so you dont need just one 3 sec KD to make useless all the other tools in eccess, this only happen when the 3 sec kd is shared among too many ppl inside the party which make too much free build option and too many option to gain with no trade off ( as tank face a trade off for KD the aprty will need more cc since teh dmg drop and so the cc in abbundace will have their use tough this will make the use of CC more strategic , less copypast 3sec KD and the cc should be a little mercifull in time being cc as the KD became tanks spec dependant so positioning, awarness vs tanks and less 3 sec KD around mean ppl will suffer less from being CC overall.


5-don't joke with my spelling, it should be different becasue the criteria pre 1.4.7 was , for what i can see at least, that silence and disarm was 1 sec higer than melee KD, I alredy explained why and the interation between have or not have a limited number of 3+ sec KD and on who.

6- sorry my opinion is well explained in scrlian quote i made points and the aim for the fix which one of them is kill the hard cc on ppl system which we have atm which required RD to be balanced (so your easy system to understand need a 10 rp broken skill to work), improve teh skill in KD use, kill the copypaste build on msot classes, open for party diversiity composition.

7.your bw/sorc balance talk cannot be taken seriously , they had 2 sec KD before and ppl specced it. BW with best meccanic in game ( exept maybe choppa/slayer) and have acces to uncleansable snare while dmg channeling (basically cuz it reapply every tick), rkd and heal debuff, and look for aoe departement moral tactic and best istant not coutnerable 1200 aoe dmg morales 2 in whole game (since is 360 degree and not cone); if a bw is using other stuff it mean there are even more cheesy combo not that these tools are uselss sy... same apply for sw rkd WHICH also debuff initiative

all of this is called inconsistency and holes in the system (especially wh stag iimmunity)

[qwerty113]

Spoiler:

Tesq crybaby what wrong? buthurt by wh's ?
What did you say ? nerf wh/we ? Again ?! After low crit and mp, get oout here !

Not just trashtalk, but also in the Balance forum? You're out.

[Hastykrasty]

First things first, yes the KD was 2s, but you were also rooted in place (you couldn't spin aroud once knocked down, like now) and this matters A LOT.

Then, you can't simply state that CC is the main issue that makes RD "mandatory" and then ignoring all the snares (st and aoe) which are the MAIN reason of people speccing it. Everything that will come out from this thread will be logically flawed, since the problem must be taken in account in its whole. You can't reduce the KD duration and then what? we will discuss in some other hypothetical thread the snares? when? how since the effects of the former are tied to the latter?

Furthermore, your approach is a bit too simplicistic

Spoiler:

2- BO /Sm problem in live was have the KD/KB too high because melee at the time had 2 sec KD and not 3 sec KD; on ror the KD is accessible the same way as other tanks but wonder why no BO/SM spec it atm (or anyway is suboptimal for small scale so much).... maybe because they can can passby, if melee loose the 3 sec KD BO/SM should probably get their or the party would loose one 3 sec KD or new party comp will open for IB/BG in place of either them or kobs/CH ; this mean they will have to indirect nerf themself as mastery point are not infinite for pick up the KD. This mean choice/build variety etc as what i wrote in scrilian quote so read it there.

4-In theory yes kd should be generally 1 sec lower, in practise not; because tank are slow and with no snare immunity ( exept rd problem we are trying to solve) if a tank reach a rdps/healer he deserve a 3 sec KD also if 3 sec KD are limited to tank only this mean you will potentially have 1 or 2 based on group composition which mean with 20 sec each the number of 3 sec KD is limited and so other form of cc can be used in his place; 3 sec disarm and silence are exatly as the KD, the fact that they do not limit the movement is ,in some cases as dot which proc on movement (chosen/IB/WH/WE), better under snare and regardless silence and disarm of 3 sec sit in a situation in this way between 3 sec KD and 2 sec KD where the limitation is that KD work vs any class; silence and disarm will work only vs either melee or caster but is 1 sec higer (with tank KD being the balance breaker)
Basically tank KD is a balance breaker which should be high limited inside the party to 1-2 ppl with a cd of 20 sec while other are tools in abbundance: 2 sec KD and 3 sec silence/disarm (basically filler when the strong cc is not up). As i said everything have a coldown so you dont need just one 3 sec KD to make useless all the other tools in eccess, this only happen when the 3 sec kd is shared among too many ppl inside the party which make too much free build option and too many option to gain with no trade off ( as tank face a trade off for KD the aprty will need more cc since teh dmg drop and so the cc in abbundace will have their use tough this will make the use of CC more strategic , less copypast 3sec KD and the cc should be a little mercifull in time being cc as the KD became tanks spec dependant so positioning, awarness vs tanks and less 3 sec KD around mean ppl will suffer less from being CC overall.

- For what regards No 2. You are contraddicting yourself a bit, only BO/SM would have to choose, the other tanks no, so whats the point here? we need to change all the KD for BO/SM? this doesn't bring any more choices for kotbs/chosen for example, maybe their KD should be moved to favour your "spec choice" view? (rethoric question). So no point here.

-In point 4 things get blurry:
You said that tanks are slower which is false, this is not total war where heavy armoured troops are slower, it's fault of the SNARES that are ignored. So no point here.
Then you say that Silence and Disarm have the same duration of KDs, well that's incorrect, AM and Shammy have a 5s silence as Shaggy has already stated and WH/WE have a 4s disarm, so it's not always the same. Then, the fact that KD is always better than a silence/disarm is false, but it's situational, for example WH/WE sudden accusation (movement dmg proc) is best if used with a silence for some classes, whilst the KD is better against gobbos for their speed proc. Although I agree that maybe these situation are few.
Bear in mind that many disarms need parry or other requirements (like berserk for Slayer/choppa), so it's not as easy as you depict it.

Then lets pass to your points in the OP

Spoiler:

-Promote more hard choice on tanks due 3+sec KD being only accessible to them and so more build diversity

As stated before, build diversity will be only for BO/SM not for other tanks, so no point here.

Spoiler:

-Alleviate the CC problem so that RD is no more needed / can be soft nerf with out worry about cc being so strong

Actually it sill is. Since you disregarded the Roots and Snares it will be essential for most (kiting classes and mdps, since they have weaker CC now, obtaining quite the opposite effect). So no point here.

Spoiler:

-balance better KD vs all other form of cc

Well, this is opinionable, your main goal seems the WH/WE self punt, as it's your main example. Then why should all the other classes be nerfed (cause it's a nerf for everybody except tanks, lets face it) for a skill? Maybe change the skill? or increase its Immunity?

So in conclusion, this will only lead (in my view) to a disappearance of some mdps, like WE/WH that will be forced even more outside collective play, plus the fact that rdps will be the unchallenged kings in the lakes (and they are actually strong enough).

[Toldavf]

First things first, yes the KD was 2s, but you were also rooted in place (you couldn't spin aroud once knocked down, like now) and this matters A LOT.

Then, you can't simply state that CC is the main issue that makes RD "mandatory" and then ignoring all the snares (st and aoe) which are the MAIN reason of people speccing it. Everything that will come out from this thread will be logically flawed, since the problem must be taken in account in its whole. You can't reduce the KD duration and then what? we will discuss in some other hypothetical thread the snares? when? how since the effects of the former are tied to the latter?

Furthermore, your approach is a bit too simplicistic

Spoiler:

2- BO /Sm problem in live was have the KD/KB too high because melee at the time had 2 sec KD and not 3 sec KD; on ror the KD is accessible the same way as other tanks but wonder why no BO/SM spec it atm (or anyway is suboptimal for small scale so much).... maybe because they can can passby, if melee loose the 3 sec KD BO/SM should probably get their or the party would loose one 3 sec KD or new party comp will open for IB/BG in place of either them or kobs/CH ; this mean they will have to indirect nerf themself as mastery point are not infinite for pick up the KD. This mean choice/build variety etc as what i wrote in scrilian quote so read it there.

4-In theory yes kd should be generally 1 sec lower, in practise not; because tank are slow and with no snare immunity ( exept rd problem we are trying to solve) if a tank reach a rdps/healer he deserve a 3 sec KD also if 3 sec KD are limited to tank only this mean you will potentially have 1 or 2 based on group composition which mean with 20 sec each the number of 3 sec KD is limited and so other form of cc can be used in his place; 3 sec disarm and silence are exatly as the KD, the fact that they do not limit the movement is ,in some cases as dot which proc on movement (chosen/IB/WH/WE), better under snare and regardless silence and disarm of 3 sec sit in a situation in this way between 3 sec KD and 2 sec KD where the limitation is that KD work vs any class; silence and disarm will work only vs either melee or caster but is 1 sec higer (with tank KD being the balance breaker)
Basically tank KD is a balance breaker which should be high limited inside the party to 1-2 ppl with a cd of 20 sec while other are tools in abbundance: 2 sec KD and 3 sec silence/disarm (basically filler when the strong cc is not up). As i said everything have a coldown so you dont need just one 3 sec KD to make useless all the other tools in eccess, this only happen when the 3 sec kd is shared among too many ppl inside the party which make too much free build option and too many option to gain with no trade off ( as tank face a trade off for KD the aprty will need more cc since teh dmg drop and so the cc in abbundace will have their use tough this will make the use of CC more strategic , less copypast 3sec KD and the cc should be a little mercifull in time being cc as the KD became tanks spec dependant so positioning, awarness vs tanks and less 3 sec KD around mean ppl will suffer less from being CC overall.

- For what regards No 2. You are contraddicting yourself a bit, only BO/SM would have to choose, the other tanks no, so whats the point here? we need to change all the KD for BO/SM? this doesn't bring any more choices for kotbs/chosen for example, maybe their KD should be moved to favour your "spec choice" view? (rethoric question). So no point here.

-In point 4 things get blurry:
You said that tanks are slower which is false, this is not total war where heavy armoured troops are slower, it's fault of the SNARES that are ignored. So no point here.
Then you say that Silence and Disarm have the same duration of KDs, well that's incorrect, AM and Shammy have a 5s silence as Shaggy has already stated and WH/WE have a 4s disarm, so it's not always the same. Then, the fact that KD is always better than a silence/disarm is false, but it's situational, for example WH/WE sudden accusation (movement dmg proc) is best if used with a silence for some classes, whilst the KD is better against gobbos for their speed proc. Although I agree that maybe these situation are few.
Bear in mind that many disarms need parry or other requirements (like berserk for Slayer/choppa), so it's not as easy as you depict it.

Then lets pass to your points in the OP

Spoiler:

-Promote more hard choice on tanks due 3+sec KD being only accessible to them and so more build diversity

As stated before, build diversity will be only for BO/SM not for other tanks, so no point here.

Spoiler:

-Alleviate the CC problem so that RD is no more needed / can be soft nerf with out worry about cc being so strong

Actually it sill is. Since you disregarded the Roots and Snares it will be essential for most (kiting classes and mdps, since they have weaker CC now, obtaining quite the opposite effect). So no point here.

Spoiler:

-balance better KD vs all other form of cc

Well, this is opinionable, your main goal seems the WH/WE self punt, as it's your main example. Then why should all the other classes be nerfed (cause it's a nerf for everybody except tanks, lets face it) for a skill? Maybe change the skill? or increase its Immunity?

So in conclusion, this will only lead (in my view) to a disappearance of some mdps, like WE/WH that will be forced even more outside collective play, plus the fact that rdps will be the unchallenged kings in the lakes (and they are actually strong enough).

I believe spinning is only a visual bug at this point, It was patched some time ago i think.

[JoyToy]

The only problem I have with cc in this game is the fact that snares are spammable even if u cleanse it, they just reapply it till death do us part. I think they should be added to an immunity. The other problem I have is with the fact that the silence from bw (and possibly other classes) is aoe, therefore triggering immunities of everyone around who is not a caster, making the spell useless in the vast majority of situations, not to mention that it lasts only 3 secs. Also, I think all cc should be breakable if you spend your anti cc morale.

And for the love of god, put some kind of immunity or cooldown on the easy mode insta death pulls in this game. They are way OP since they just surround you and u have no way to defend, not to mention the pulling off of walls in keeps which is vastly abused.

Next topic: Easy mode double guarded melee train.

[Aurandilaz]

I still just do not grasp your "problem" that you are trying to fix here with massive CC "balance" sweeps, which apparently include just nerfing dps KD whilst keeping tanks potent with their 3 sec, 4 sec and 5 sec KDs. WE/WH is already very much out of fashion due to their lack of mobility and armour in meleetrain setups, so nerfing them further doesn't seem really productive when it comes to making massive CC balance sweeps.

You just keep repeating a vision of how things "should" be, instead of really presenting an actual problem that requires massive balance changes.
There is reason why sorc/BW aoe silence is 3 seconds, it comes free without speccing and it is decent opening move for WB action. It also serves as a last second life saver in case you are getting targeted, the insta cast silence can save your life; it is far from being a bad ability.
Same goes for WE/WH Disarm, it's duration is 4 seconds which is already quite luxurious, furthermore it helps with the opener that causes dmg to targets that keep moving, meaning it can be better than KD very often. Because it happens to be quite good, it requires you to parry first.
Similarly, a BG KD done with max hate allows a nice 5 sec KD, but it requires block. Good CC doesn't happen without cost.

As mentioned above, certain tank classes will spec KD regardless of your grand CC change plans, because thats their cookie cutter spec. You would mostly just nerf the KD duration of dps classes, some of them which are vital to their core rotation (WE/WH). (those being classes that are very much far away from deserving nerfs at this point of game)

And as other posters point out, people don't spec for RD just because of KDs, but very often because of the massive amount of snares that are being spammed by both sides. Nerfing KDs won't really affect the demand for RD, as the amount of snares remains unaddressed.

Keep in mind that Dwarves for example have a racial tactic halving the amount of KD duration they suffer, meaning a WE atm can knock a RP down for 1.5 sec, but after your grand plan it would become 1 sec bump in the road as the RP just keeps going.
Furthermore, there exists a Witch Elf tactic called "For the Hag Queen", which grants a 4 sec KD. Rarely used because the 10% proc chance on Finisher ability is very quite low, but it serves to point out that the game is quite complex with it's variety of CC and KD durations. (just as Shaman/AM 5 sec silences were pointed out above, with shaman having synergy between 5 sec silence + GSS = far better outcome than 5 sec KD)


I am honestly wondering where this thread is going, when it seems that many of us here just do not agree with OP's explanation of "existing problem". You want dps classes to have lesser KDs than tanks, others here do not want such disparity, and others here do not look with nostalgia back to the days before 1.47. when people with good reason joked about the game being called "Staggerhammer". Changing dps KDs from 3 to 2 sec does not IMHO lead to a better balance.

[Tesq]

1) you could spin around when KDed from live, pre and after patch 1.4.7 and also on ror until the change , that statement is false

2) BO/SM is an exemple , the better one, they are the tank that transit the less from middle mastery, the same exemple can be done for all other tanks cc anyway.

ch/kobs/BO/SM KD are all in the same place 9pt
IB/BG/CH/KObs aoe cc is in the same place 9pt
IB/BG/BO/SM have both some core cc, the first st KD and the second ones aoe KD
chosen/SM have a silence in 13pt
KOBS/BO have a snare tactic not on KD mastery ( BO is higer because it also disorient)

etc

this can apply to all tanks and the situation here compared to live is better for SM/BO
Same is goign for kobs/chosen, if you put MP into 1 mastery you are not puntting them into another one (choice matter) atm choice dont matter because 1 mastery can simple be ignored if 1 or 2 melee bring the KD in place for tanks (kobs/ch too). And tanks can spec straight on 2 mastery with out have party loose no tools (and since you can spec into 2 mastery at once you do'tn loose really nothing in term of group utility and gain all the benefith from the other 2 masterywith out loose the KD of 3 sec scine you gona probable need only 3 sec KD since you have MORE BURST by spec deeper into the offensive and support mastery

3)) how can some mdps be prefered than other if they have all the same KD??

on contraire since the kd is 2 sec and worst of tanks it will matter less if choppa/slayer one is undefitable etc....cuz is just 2 sec instead 3 so is a filler more or less equal for all mdps.

4) root are not a problem x se, only morales such mara/wl/kobs can give hard time because they dont break on hit.
Mara/wl is in fact trated here as it was changed in 1.4.7 and is a st cc because in all 1.4.7 cc changes ninjed were on st cc.

5)aoe stag : ch/kobs , dok/wp morales, magus/endi need to be balanced x se here too 3 braket but these are the less hard of the CC currently exept when bomb wb with magus/engi But the value 6 sec could possibly lowered to 5 and not less in this case so is pointless add another hard matter to a thread which is alredy with 3 subtopic

6) as told yes snares are important but the problem is due to mostly overvalues in game which should be cut half because they are full flegged snare by themself, the exemple is

sw/squig snare + self punt ( and his 10 sec duration when it probable need 5).

stuff like this make the snare overpresent in game, same apply to wl pet, which have a tank snare (10 sec duration 5 of CD) on top of wl alredy have a snare. (so is basically like a ranged snare) possible same stuff bit more messend on squig pet.

Since the snares would requrie a thread on their own and the game was better balance in term of cc than post 1.4.7 i tought start from Hard cc such KD, moral root and WH/WE stag loop would had been a good starting point because tough your observation can be ok; im refering only to revert change done in 1.4.7 atm and not to new changes.
I am aware of snare and could even give you a new proposal immidiatly for what i can but just ithink would be better focus on what i wrote here first

-KD multiple problems
-wh/we stag immunity hole in cc system (possible even revert the stag duration to pre 1.4.7
-wl/mara M1 root since offer little counter play on some classes such healers (either m2 or RD) (and this is quite the problem with most cc morales in game and i cant approach to multiple problem all togheter explain everyone all the synergy problem that surf from morales which is basially be more than 5 sec (kobs root m3, SM m2, dok/WP etc etc)

if ppl want a full reference i can write it here for a full rewamp:

Spoiler:

KD:
tanks 3+ sec
DD/RDD 2 sec

Root
-tank base root unchanged
-tank M1 champion challenge unchanged
-m1 mara/wl duration 5 sec (do dmg, ranged, dont break on dmg. donìt lock 1 party memebr on the place)
-M1 IB unchanged do less dmg than mara/wl one and is a tank and not a melee
-KOBS m3 5 sec ( hit multiple ppl , dont break on hit, also do 1200 dmg aoe can be used as def /off tool

snares: (this is messy as kOBS/BG are cone so worst than Bo/ib ones which are 360 degree)
-IB increase the CD as per mach a bit BO changes (or leave it as now)
-BG make it more spam able as KOBS one but lower target number
-BO snare need a CD on the snare min 10 second possible more
-KOBS the balance is done by x number of ppl hit in x time which must be = to 1 BO aoe snare ( ex: bo cd is 15 sec snasre 9 ppl, then kobs will snare 3 ppl; cd 5 sec, the which mean he snared 9 ppl ovr 15 sec as the BO).
-SW/Squig self punt, snare for 5 sec

KB:
-we alredy had a punt thread...

stag:
-ch/KOBS 3 sec but increase range a bit, possibler ap cost reduction
-engi/magus 5 sec cuz personally 6 sec is too much time if the stag is done properly 5 is sufficient for bomb something
-dok/wp M3 7 sec (dropped from 9 because that is too much but is till a morales and stag break anyway on hit plus this morale never caused issued anyway in warband size or less so it can be a bit higer or equal to magus/engi)
-special mention runy/zealot stag, maybe 5 sec instead 6 not sure here ....

aoe Morales ( i have to reapet something here to make you udnerstand the schem but bsically all should be 5 sec on morales necause they do dmg + cc and eff + dmg is undefitable and in case of SM m2 it also stack with other cc of the same kind)

.BO M3 silece as now 5 sec
.KOBS M3 root 5 sec
.SM m2 snare 5 sec ( no dmg but can stack with other snare source + if target dont have anti snare can be basically immobilized by the stack rule and is also a off/def pounce, 10 sec are definetly too many, maybe due the drop in cc a coevalent dmg would be add as the BH KB m2)

Silence/disarm

-all no moral silence/disarm = 3 seconds

so you really wanted discuss all of this in 1 thread?

@also this is not JUST About KD there are 2 ither subtopic which ppl are ignoring.

Statement as nerf to we/wh for the kd are bias ....all melee and all rdp will became 2 sec i dont see why this should make worst or better we/wh compared to all the other melee( all melee will be worst compared to tank and only that) since they alredy all will be 2 sec. Unless you wanna tell me you take 1 tank instead a we/WH for a 3 sec KD then this have no sense all are now 3 sec if wh/we dont get choose instead a mara/wl or a chopp/slayer even now this will not change and not get worst if ALL kd on melee became 2 sec maybe since they became ALL filler maybe the difference will be much less importantso and it can turn out quite the oppositen of your predictions which in fact is also one if the aim of the proposal, make melee KD difference irrelevan as all became filler .

@aureliz, your points seems not from group persepctive the group will still have a 3 sec KD.... WANNA 3 sec KD on 1 target? bring a tank with you. Tank will still have the 3 sedc KD wh/we dont play SOLO.

-same for kd and dwarf tactic..... tank will STILL KD target for 1.5 sec (maybe reason why BG have a 5 sec KD?! someone)
-----as this turned in fact bring a BG maybe is time to remove chosen or 1 BO from the party comp.
(look one of the aim of the nerf was made worth more BG/IB, all melee KD suck=?, Tank dosen't !! BG especially is even better as hard counter to that tactic , objective reached check.


@told; tank are slower, they remove snare or root and dont gain immunity, if you see a chance as melee you can immune to snare /root charge a bit +3 sec kd AND burst down/finish a target if provided the tank is not that behind and you can still benefith from guard if he is just enough to close the distance with the time provided by the 3 sec kd.

but in case of a tank ( no immunity no charge that would had been impossible) so why melee also have 3 sec KD? to do for a free a tank job that's the answer. Have near the tank would had been better if the kd was 2 sec but no point becasue is 3 sec so who cares? so why tank should spec the kd if a melee can do it in hsi place? since tank can also be punt away removin the chance to actually KD something.....here another melee can do it in his place and instead have a 2 sec lifesaver is a 3 sec life seaver ( plus detaunt) or a 3 sec hard cc even with tank punted away.....

@regarding the more than 3 sec silence/disarm in game.
-conditional as wh haved 1 sec higer because ..you know.....they are conditional trade for 1 sec higer of cc and no other benefith .....(such choppa7slayer conditional with range consum but make them undefitable hence duration should be the same as the trade off is not for the the duration but for the the hit be undefiteable.
-silence/disarm of 4+ sec was gave to underperforming classes as dps dok/wp/am/sh as bandaid or incentive

Also alpha strike should be disencourage not encourage, 5 sec silence is retarded , you wanna remove from the fight even before the only counter for that, m2 , is not even up? From start for 5 sec ?? Multiplay this which wh immunity hole and KD abbundancy Then wonder why you need rd????

[Eathisword]

ib/BG 4 and 5 sec cd
other tank 3+
all dd/rdd 2 sec

Just a clarification, IB's KD is 3s. Patch 1.4.7 removed the scaling that mirrored it to BG. So all tanks have 3s KD, except BG.

1-should dd/rdd have less effective form of KD than tanks to improve the tank pick up diversity?
I agree that 2s KD on dps classes would be good as it would favor more synergy between classes, communication between tank and dps for when the KD is needed. Not a very big deal though.

2-should WH/WE stag immunity get fix or remain a hole in the system?
I have no problem with the 6s stagger, but its immunity should scale just like all other CC. It shoudl have the same immunity rule in proportion as Zealot/RP stagger and knight/chosen stagger. So, if chosen/knight 3s stagger gives 30s immunity, then a 5 second stagger should give 50s immunity and so on. So that there is a constant proportion between the strength of your CC and its cost/drawback. And I say DA/AE but it should be true for all form of CC. Each type should have a rule that is constant across all classes.

3-should mara/wl moral 1 be put in his place again for the same 2 point above (in the problematic part) related to they being DD and not tank and tanks have champions challenge in this caseso bringing on the field soemthing which is alredy in tank department and have it good enough as them? ( as both have for moral form of the same ST root and mara/Wl is definetly better then tanks one)
I disagree and agree. It is true that Champion challenge is in tank departement, but it is better than WL/mara M1, because the latter can be break with Juggernaut, charge and M2 focus mind (range class). Champion Challenge cannot be break. THen again, M1 root for WL/mara is range, so it is better in that regard. So again, agree and disagree. Maybe reducing the duration would be enough. Removing it eliminates a very important counterplay to already dominating Rdps in game.