Morals redesign idea

[Acidic]

There are ways to counter morale bombs, Death drains all morale's, There are morale's that drain in AoE, abilities that drain morale's and tactic's that drain morale's. Even some gear had morale drain components on it.

Also, at one time AoR supported via the old renown rank system, that a single player's death drained a x amount of morale via AoE. You had to spend renown points thou to buy the rvr tactic.

As we said its a mini game, none deny this. what the issue is is the overwellming significance of the morals (to an extent more so than anyother dps ability or spec, especialy since the return to WAR moral gain levls.
They were about before the raise in gain but now it needs almost no setup to get to m2/3 so its easy reward for no risk.

[Acidic]

Morale bombing is a natural part of the game.

This game at one time supported heavy defensive morale cycle's and also supported some very high mitigation value's via gear.

There had to be a way in the game's design to tear apart those aspects which there were.

The game in it's design has ways to pierce through those defensive morale cycle's AND the high mitigation value's of upper echelon gear.

At the small and large scale your group composition should always have taken into account how to deal with morale bombs and how to deal with strong buffing/debuffing group comps that take advantage of these powerful morale's. If your not taking into account these different group type compositions then that is the fault of YOUR group composition and not of the game.

Roughly 1/4th to 1/5th of organized play revolves around the use of timing/coordinating morale's. Which btw is why I harped on the morale gain rates for so long.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this post why it’s a problem in the current state.
It was maybe 1/4 of the gameplay before the raise , now it is the deciding factor, it’s way over 1/4 , if a warband does not fire off morals first 10-15 sec after enemy contact) you lose.
Coordinating this , yes hard to use moral circle and say on commas morals in 1 2 3 , I even manage this
Small scale has different issues , the biggest is the aoe moral bombs hitting simultaneously . This is also why I suggested the model of moral gain, basic principle is for it to only affect tightly packed overlapping moral bombing. The model should ensure small bands do get moral advantage for being heroic.

Part of the game , that sounds like the weakest argument ever bearing in mind some of the stuff that was in the game. Not everything mythic did was right , think all can agree on that point.

[wonshot]

1)Morals simply give a timed burst, this does not in anyway prevent the burst from bing used defensivly of offensivly. That is moral dump is equaly good for holding a choke point as breaking one.


Click here to watch on YouTube

Case in point the video of holding caledor keep with Ocara's warband last night ant the end of teh vid you see one of our defensive dumps.
This clearly shows that in that particular keep ground floor holding the morals are easier to be managed by the defending side as they can easily chose the time to dump, where as the incomming group has to get in place to to dump them.

1) I think you said it best yourself, it works both ways. And honestly, no matter how it gets tuned you can always stack moral or raw damage on top, and it becomes a numbers game of who can bring more. That leads us the the targetcap. Should damaging morales have a target cap, should it be extended, removed or changed in one way or an other?(open question) That all depends on what side you look at it, let us continue to your video:


2) So call me biased, but all I see in your video is Order having aao in the begining and you(destro) push their warcamp (assuming you outnumber them, it is unknown by how much) You just hold down your "W" key and run forward and we dont see how many allies you got behind you, the warband you are in seem to do a coordinated Moral2 Raze bomb on tanks and Orderlings go poof. Bravo. What did we learn? Well morales can be used no matter if you are already winning by just shear numbers, and will help you secure the leading possition. or.. It can be used against you, big shocker. In this case, of the video you present to us, the enemies of your warband didnt use any morales in the shown fights.

For the last part of your video, you are in a defensive chokepoint possition have a great setup and go from being in a turtlestance to pushing out(noticed one of your targets having AAO btw;) ) and it would seem you again garenteed the victory with a moral push.


My point; no matter if moral damage is turned into DoT based (like the tank M2 Raze) it can be stacked to such a degree that it becomes unhealable. Same goes with instant DD singletarget, or Aoe. No matter how you tweak the numbers it can be stacked on top of eachother and then we are back at it being about "number of players", and then we can debate if the tagetcap should be changed but in the end morales work just fine, they do have counterplay in the rate of draining them, or pump to match.The game is not mirrored or ballanced as to say, its pretty close though and each side has their uniqness and tricks.
The only factor that still remains is how many players each side of the battle has since morales work for both the numbered and the blob but with a targetcap + moral cooldown you can only use your trick so many times before you get overrun or have to flee. So that opens the debate how quickly players obtain their morales, Imho at the current rate we are seeing too many morales, and I would like the current moral per sec rate to be halfed. So more classes get to use their M1 and M2 compared to pre change of Moral rate, and not just single classes getting moral pumped by others, or via tactics get to play in the early moral bombs.


Finishing thourght, is it annoying to get killed by moral damage. Sure it is! It does have both a 1min cooldown before it can get fired again though, moraldrains, cc effects and other tactic tools can be used to prevent or stall a potential moral dump on you, and it does have a targetcap and range restricktion. Its not perfect, but it works, and it works both ways.

[Aurandilaz]

I will raise a couple of points.

Firstly - I neither believe nor care that morales may have been introduced to combat RR/gear, and I will never make a decision based around this concept. The regular ability system does not compensate for RR or gear. Neither should the morale system.

Secondly - I agree with the OP in that morale play is a minigame and what's more, it's a rigged one that favours:

a) people who prefer a certain playstyle (coordinated morale drop), who have traditionally been the ones pushing the hardest for morale gain rates of live
b) the classes that have the tools (and the very limited number of tools) that form a part of that minigame - traditionally favoured by the people listed in a)

Thirdly - the argument will inevitably be raised that morale bombing is necessary to break funnels and deal with zerg (despite it being itself a cause of massing). Any poster needs to explicitly address this.

As I do not wish to partake much in decisions based around large scale affairs, I will say that I'm looking for solutions which make all classes useful within the Morale system and can demonstrate some means of making the system more interesting than "synchronised morale drop from a handful of meta classes/specs".

Well I truly hope that whoever ends up with redesigning morales would actually take the time to play in an organized warband settings, and hopefully in an actual premade warband - not the first open pug warband available.
And then before basing judgements on pug-on-pug bashing, would actually get proper amount of chances to witness premade warband versus premade warband fighting, and see how morales are functioning in that setup.
In such case it might lead to that person realizing that tanks have extremely high wounds in order to be able to survive high levels of morale burst dmg, there will be several healers on standby ready to start rez-trains, and coordinating a drop will be delayed by various drains (of which Order however is lacking compared to Mara drain) and by well timed punts ensuring 1-5 people will miss from timing their burst with others, and making sure there is no idiot around handing immunities which allows a well placed stagger for example to cancel a raze m2 bomb.
If the coordinated burst fails to reach 8-10k dmg amounts, it will most likely fail to bring down the tankline of the foe - meaning if those correctly timed punts or massive snare efforts played off, the burst might just be 2-3k lower and the moral bomb will fail to achieve a fight-deciding outcome.

Obviously RvR is always chaotic and full of pugs, so having long struggle between 2 well geared and well organized premade warbands rarely occur (hopefully pop will increase in future + more guild warband guilds), instead you have the usual running around fighting all over place, warbands trying too coordinate with other warbands to kill enough enemies and establish dominance over BOs leading to keep siege etc... Most fights could be decided easily without any morale being launched, often they just speed the process and instead of one side losing in 10-20 sec due other side having more AoE output or better gameplay/tactics/tricks/debuffs, it might take just 20-40 sec instead chasing people down in the area before last one goes down on losing side. Maybe longer fight would allow more defenders to rally, but it might also allow more attackers to reinforce the fight, who knows... but when played well, with good positioning, proper CC use and enough healers, TimeToKill can be quite high. Some tanks and even exceptional healers can be incredibly hard to take out, so morales certainly speed the process of determining fights duration.

However as pointed out by Aza, current morales are certainly unbalanced due to some classes simply having better options available. What is in high demand are M2 AoE dmg morals, preferably those without dmg over time effect, followed by decent M3 aoe dmg morales, with M4 being somewhat less often reached (36m/s, M4=3600, aka 100 sec). Preferably future redesigns would allow more classes to reach decent M2s allowing them to participate along the "chosen few" when it comes to fast drops. There also exist plethora of decent defensive M2-M3s, which hopefully get even better for future use, either as allowing them to be rotated like Sorc WWS or DoK 1001 or Gromril Plating/Mountain Spirit, possibly even acting like Knight Solar Flare in denying enemy the use of their respective morales.
And regarding drains, I would personally like to see 2-3 classes on both sides being capable of some serious draining, not just Maras. Even today, despite running a moral pump of 200/m /3sec, often I would never reach M2 before going down or fight being decided otherwise due to how efficient 3-4 maras can be in draining a whole enemy warband.
Also I would recommend against adding more "damage over time" morales, as they are borderline pathetic, healers can heal through them, tanks can HoT pot + other heal pot through them, they might kill a few unhealed pugs... but you don't balance game around Grand Pug Warfare conditions. (one 4.8k hot pot alone countering 4x1200DoTmorales...)


tldr, morales are fine, TTK is already high when playing game in proper setups with good tanks and good healers, just ensure more drain possibilities in future and more fair distribution of good M2 aoe dmg morales/defensive morales - and fix healer M4 so that you can get serious reztrains going on.

[Tesq]

The problem with this is that it plays into the gear issue aswell. With a dot portion you essentially just boost the dps output of the side that allready have better dps output from gear and rr (and certainly better cordination and dps rotations aswell) allready, aswell as giving the side that have better healing output (which they get from gear and rr) a better chance.

How does converting DD morales to DoT effects boost the DPS output of one side more than the DD morales already do? The healing argument is a good point though, having warning that you have a Morale DoT effect on you means it can be healed through, as opposed to no-warning direct damage.

Could these concerns be addressed by giving each morale a unique cooldown timer, with high damage bombing morales being on a longer cooldown? Without using specific numbers you could have something like

Shortest CD -> Longest CD:
Single target damage/defense -> Group Buff/Debuff -> Group Defense -> AoE Damage

With adjustments for specific cases. Lowest CDs start at the classic 60s.

Alternatively, what about this idea?

1. lower the base morale gain rate, and scale it up by the number of people in your group.
2. Then hijack the unused main-assist functionality to designate someone as the parties' morale user, and they are the only ones who generate morale, but at the increased rate.
3. Buff underperforming morales (or nerf overperforming ones) to make their selection an actual strategic decision for a group.

Just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks.

look /all i gona take this geni post as a base to explain why the morales problem is no other than a normal and simple class balance issue both internal and external to realms/classes and how change some morales will just make game better and NOT gone make em worst for break sieges ( aza point number 3)

a) if you give a look at the morales and how some classes are prefered to others, give the best morale to x instead to y became a basic re-balance the power creep issue (inside a realm ): to more classes you can spread the good stuff so that the eggs are all still in the same basket but instead have 1 full colored egg and 12 not colored you have 12 enough colored eggs so that any egg( class) is worth enough for someone on that basket ( realm ) to take it. Aka stronger morales 2 should be given to weaker for base aoe spammer classes and not to the strongest (so the bw m2 is the max of the wrongness by ratio for any balance ; both max dmg for m2, istant, 360 degree, and can build it from afar + moral tactic. This is not just order even mara aswell could have some words but bw exemple is enough to got what im saying regarding make ALL CLASSES IN THE REALM USEFULL FOR WB).

b)the dot argument (aka give more time ) wont nerf morales in the slightest in the sich such as sieges/funnel as those are static situation-If for exemple bw moral 2 would be change into a dot similar to magus one (but ground target instead of enemy target) in siege this will just offer 1-2 sec to react and to put up counter play it wont nerf the overall dmg you can put up potentially and still some classess (the weaker one such w/we should stll have the best m2 arounds) and worst case scenario if it does then there is m4 which is exatly the point here ......... m2 and 3 on some classes are too much competitive vs their own m4 so that you can use m2-3 as good as m4 , nerf m2-3 dosent mean nerf ALL moral minigame it mean introduce a form of progression till m4; at the moment there is a very few progression as the mathematically k.o. can be done with m2-3 too and not ONLY WITH JUST M4.

m2-3 should not mean mathematically wipe even if landed 100% perfectly cuz they are simply not moral 4, thats why change some morales to be over time (simple dot as magus one) or make em channeling wont destroy the moral meta, on contrair it will make it much much more interesting and more classes will have more interesting roles and space to shine, anyone who oppose to a nerf to m2-3 is just dont wanna see his own class nerfed.

c)i dont think different cd need to be given morales is all about values ( potentiality of the max dmg make you **** not care about cd since when you drop it , is dropped, point. The fight is probably won so it dosent really matter, it's all there the problem, since even def and healing class have access to off morales these morales need to be scaled better, for exemple any factor into a morals that make it better need to make the base value lower. For exemple if a m2 do 1200 dmg channeling a ista m2 should not do 1200 dmg istantly most likely 600, such this is how is strong have a ista nuke which offer no counterplay.

d) make morales be absorbed wont change much as the absorb each party can use is very limited and if morales wont kill you the subsequential burst will do, atm if you can survive you will absortb the post morales burst so it's the same thing; either way if you die you will die regardless, if you survive you sill survive regardless. And that burst will came you can bet on it, perfectly delivered post any moral nuke .... is just auto , you auto keep do dps post morales drop so nothing to reason about here...

e) morales support to the fight should be more into the make you survive side, because that give you a chance to do soemthing you should not under normal condition which is different to say you istantly kill the enemy. Per se logic offensive morales are wrong, very much wrong, as instead offer new option or giveving you more time /prolonging the fight , def morales are useless because they cant work vs off morales and even if they could moral meta revolve around ista drop so there is NO way to know when enemy gona use moral drop as being istant , post is too late, pre is just make enemy wait to relase the nuke.

f) i've being made this talk idk how many times before, the few number of morales which meta revolve around, bw/mara/raze/kobs+bo m3 are locking out so many other morales (this is an external problem for both realms) it's just get dumber the more the time it pass )....

g) moral gain rate is IRRELEVANT for decide if morales are balanced or not, because who cares how many times you take to reach em , if they are unbalanced and the progression between m2/3 and 4 is off it dosent matter if you reach em faster or slower they are still unbalanced stuff. The potentiality of the nuke is just way to much for m2-m3, have a slower moral rate mean is jsut a matter of WHEN they will be used and not IF and WHICH ONES.

solution:

there is nothin hard about we know what classes get play and which DONT you need to hit those things directly enogh to make the rest worth because the rest is stll wh/we ista 1200 moral 2 drop, and that SHOULD BE WORTH BECAUSE YOU CANT BE CUT OUT FROM A PART OF THE GAME FOR A CLASS YOU PICKED UP (make classes viable in all enviroment), i wanna play my wh both in small scale and in wb because i love the class and it should have a a worth role since it have a very good m2 but who cares since bw have everything?

-aka both mara/bw morales need to stop being istantly (need to be mirrored down to wl and magus level)
-raze can be left as it is since 2 classes per realm can interrupt it with no cast time. just istant skills (wl/mara/magus/engi)
-bw/sorc need to stop to build morales from afar this just make the interesting part of the fight shorter and make it way too much revolved around morales
-am moral bump need to stop to work out of combat if both am + target are not both into combat (stop this morales masturbation jeez)
-and finally morales need to be scaled better

ex, m2 =1200
if istantly ? scaled down to 600 aoe
if dot ? scaled down to 900
if channeling ? max dmg of 1200

ex, m3= 1200 + CC (bo/kobs)
if istantly ? scaled down to 600+ cc

this is not rocket sience is clear that if a moral is istant it should not do the same dmg as a channeling or a dot morale and that class which have access to moral tactic should be the last to have access to something which offer no or few counter-play but only awareness ( only exeption in case of wh/we when you have classes that offer no other aoe tools , then well came that these 2 classes offer an aoe morale nuke).

m4 can be in THEIR own world as they are for orvr what is the KD for the small scale, they are balance breakers, they should be balance breaker but only those should be, m2-m3 should help ya finish an enemy but not guarantee a math 100% to 0% life nuke.

so again common sense ppl....

m1- irrelevant or for st assist / peel in open field
m2-m3 - finishers or helpers
m4-realms balance breakers

Spoiler:

again what im sugggesting

bw/magus m2 = dot 360 degree
mara/wl m2 = channeling frontal
we/wh m2 = istantly frontal
KOBS/BO m3= istant 360 degree
core healers m2 = istant 360 degree
raze= unchanged

bw/magus m2 = (900 dmg)
mara/wl =(1200 dmg)
wh/we m2= (either 1200 istant if no rework for aoe will ever happen or 600 istantly if yes)
kobs/bo m3= (600 dmg)
core healers m2 = (600 dmg but heal 2x the ammount of dmg done)
raze = unchanged

P.S about drain, wh have the mara mirror drain but being cut out from aoe play is also out for the balance in that department; wh made more playable for aoe would most likely also translate into more balance between realms, so the idea is still the same , make classes like we/wh viable too for the aoe wb and the game will benefith a lot).
etc

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

1)Morals simply give a timed burst, this does not in anyway prevent the burst from bing used defensivly of offensivly. That is moral dump is equaly good for holding a choke point as breaking one.


Click here to watch on YouTube

Case in point the video of holding caledor keep with Ocara's warband last night ant the end of teh vid you see one of our defensive dumps.
This clearly shows that in that particular keep ground floor holding the morals are easier to be managed by the defending side as they can easily chose the time to dump, where as the incomming group has to get in place to to dump them.

1) I think you said it best yourself, it works both ways. And honestly, no matter how it gets tuned you can always stack moral or raw damage on top, and it becomes a numbers game of who can bring more. That leads us the the targetcap. Should damaging morales have a target cap, should it be extended, removed or changed in one way or an other?(open question) That all depends on what side you look at it, let us continue to your video:


2) So call me biased, but all I see in your video is Order having aao in the begining and you(destro) push their warcamp (assuming you outnumber them, it is unknown by how much) You just hold down your "W" key and run forward and we dont see how many allies you got behind you, the warband you are in seem to do a coordinated Moral2 Raze bomb on tanks and Orderlings go poof. Bravo. What did we learn? Well morales can be used no matter if you are already winning by just shear numbers, and will help you secure the leading possition. or.. It can be used against you, big shocker. In this case, of the video you present to us, the enemies of your warband didnt use any morales in the shown fights.

For the last part of your video, you are in a defensive chokepoint possition have a great setup and go from being in a turtlestance to pushing out(noticed one of your targets having AAO btw;) ) and it would seem you again garenteed the victory with a moral push.


My point; no matter if moral damage is turned into DoT based (like the tank M2 Raze) it can be stacked to such a degree that it becomes unhealable. Same goes with instant DD singletarget, or Aoe. No matter how you tweak the numbers it can be stacked on top of eachother and then we are back at it being about "number of players", and then we can debate if the tagetcap should be changed but in the end morales work just fine, they do have counterplay in the rate of draining them, or pump to match.The game is not mirrored or ballanced as to say, its pretty close though and each side has their uniqness and tricks.
The only factor that still remains is how many players each side of the battle has since morales work for both the numbered and the blob but with a targetcap + moral cooldown you can only use your trick so many times before you get overrun or have to flee. So that opens the debate how quickly players obtain their morales, Imho at the current rate we are seeing too many morales, and I would like the current moral per sec rate to be halfed. So more classes get to use their M1 and M2 compared to pre change of Moral rate, and not just single classes getting moral pumped by others, or via tactics get to play in the early moral bombs.


Finishing thourght, is it annoying to get killed by moral damage. Sure it is! It does have both a 1min cooldown before it can get fired again though, moraldrains, cc effects and other tactic tools can be used to prevent or stall a potential moral dump on you, and it does have a targetcap and range restricktion. Its not perfect, but it works, and it works both ways.

so you know wonshot,
My main objection to morals is not dying, that i am good at
The problem is the combination of aoe, high damage, no mitigation, and too high an impact in the game.

The summary of the proposal is :
alter moral gain, remove aoe damage morals, make morals go though standard mitigation.

The video is simply showing morals is uable for defence and offence so arguments that they are for breaking bottlenecks is wrong, as they can be used equaly well for defending as attacking.

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

The problem with this is that it plays into the gear issue aswell. With a dot portion you essentially just boost the dps output of the side that allready have better dps output from gear and rr (and certainly better cordination and dps rotations aswell) allready, aswell as giving the side that have better healing output (which they get from gear and rr) a better chance.

How does converting DD morales to DoT effects boost the DPS output of one side more than the DD morales already do? The healing argument is a good point though, having warning that you have a Morale DoT effect on you means it can be healed through, as opposed to no-warning direct damage.

Could these concerns be addressed by giving each morale a unique cooldown timer, with high damage bombing morales being on a longer cooldown? Without using specific numbers you could have something like

Shortest CD -> Longest CD:
Single target damage/defense -> Group Buff/Debuff -> Group Defense -> AoE Damage

With adjustments for specific cases. Lowest CDs start at the classic 60s.

Alternatively, what about this idea?

1. lower the base morale gain rate, and scale it up by the number of people in your group.
2. Then hijack the unused main-assist functionality to designate someone as the parties' morale user, and they are the only ones who generate morale, but at the increased rate.
3. Buff underperforming morales (or nerf overperforming ones) to make their selection an actual strategic decision for a group.

Just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks.

look /all i gona take this geni post as a base to explain why the morales problem is no other than a normal and simple class balance issue both internal and external to realms/classes and how change some morales will just make game better and NOT gone make em worst for break sieges ( aza point number 3)

a) if you give a look at the morales and how some classes are prefered to others, give the best morale to x instead to y became a basic re-balance the power creep issue (inside a realm ): to more classes you can spread the good stuff so that the eggs are all still in the same basket but instead have 1 full colored egg and 12 not colored you have 12 enough colored eggs so that any egg( class) is worth enough for someone on that basket ( realm ) to take it. Aka stronger morales 2 should be given to weaker for base aoe spammer classes and not to the strongest (so the bw m2 is the max of the wrongness by ratio for any balance ; both max dmg for m2, istant, 360 degree, and can build it from afar + moral tactic. This is not just order even mara aswell could have some words but bw exemple is enough to got what im saying regarding make ALL CLASSES IN THE REALM USEFULL FOR WB).

b)the dot argument (aka give more time ) wont nerf morales in the slightest in the sich such as sieges/funnel as those are static situation-If for exemple bw moral 2 would be change into a dot similar to magus one (but ground target instead of enemy target) in siege this will just offer 1-2 sec to react and to put up counter play it wont nerf the overall dmg you can put up potentially and still some classess (the weaker one such w/we should stll have the best m2 arounds) and worst case scenario if it does then there is m4 which is exatly the point here ......... m2 and 3 on some classes are too much competitive vs their own m4 so that you can use m2-3 as good as m4 , nerf m2-3 dosent mean nerf ALL moral minigame it mean introduce a form of progression till m4; at the moment there is a very few progression as the mathematically k.o. can be done with m2-3 too and not ONLY WITH JUST M4.

m2-3 should not mean mathematically wipe even if landed 100% perfectly cuz they are simply not moral 4, thats why change some morales to be over time (simple dot as magus one) or make em channeling wont destroy the moral meta, on contrair it will make it much much more interesting and more classes will have more interesting roles and space to shine, anyone who oppose to a nerf to m2-3 is just dont wanna see his own class nerfed.

c)i dont think different cd need to be given morales is all about values ( potentiality of the max dmg make you **** not care about cd since when you drop it , is dropped, point. The fight is probably won so it dosent really matter, it's all there the problem, since even def and healing class have access to off morales these morales need to be scaled better, for exemple any factor into a morals that make it better need to make the base value lower. For exemple if a m2 do 1200 dmg channeling a ista m2 should not do 1200 dmg istantly most likely 600, such this is how is strong have a ista nuke which offer no counterplay.

d) make morales be absorbed wont change much as the absorb each party can use is very limited and if morales wont kill you the subsequential burst will do, atm if you can survive you will absortb the post morales burst so it's the same thing; either way if you die you will die regardless, if you survive you sill survive regardless. And that burst will came you can bet on it, perfectly delivered post any moral nuke .... is just auto , you auto keep do dps post morales drop so nothing to reason about here...

e) morales support to the fight should be more into the make you survive side, because that give you a chance to do soemthing you should not under normal condition which is different to say you istantly kill the enemy. Per se logic offensive morales are wrong, very much wrong, as instead offer new option or giveving you more time /prolonging the fight , def morales are useless because they cant work vs off morales and even if they could moral meta revolve around ista drop so there is NO way to know when enemy gona use moral drop as being istant , post is too late, pre is just make enemy wait to relase the nuke.

f) i've being made this talk idk how many times before, the few number of morales which meta revolve around, bw/mara/raze/kobs+bo m3 are locking out so many other morales (this is an external problem for both realms) it's just get dumber the more the time it pass )....

g) moral gain rate is IRRELEVANT for decide if morales are balanced or not, because who cares how many times you take to reach em , if they are unbalanced and the progression between m2/3 and 4 is off it dosent matter if you reach em faster or slower they are still unbalanced stuff. The potentiality of the nuke is just way to much for m2-m3, have a slower moral rate mean is jsut a matter of WHEN they will be used and not IF and WHICH ONES.

solution:

there is nothin hard about we know what classes get play and which DONT you need to hit those things directly enogh to make the rest worth because the rest is stll wh/we ista 1200 moral 2 drop, and that SHOULD BE WORTH BECAUSE YOU CANT BE CUT OUT FROM A PART OF THE GAME FOR A CLASS YOU PICKED UP (make classes viable in all enviroment), i wanna play my wh both in small scale and in wb because i love the class and it should have a a worth role since it have a very good m2 but who cares since bw have everything?

-aka both mara/bw morales need to stop being istantly (need to be mirrored down to wl and magus level)
-raze can be left as it is since 2 classes per realm can interrupt it with no cast time. just istant skills (wl/mara/magus/engi)
-bw/sorc need to stop to build morales from afar this just make the interesting part of the fight shorter and make it way too much revolved around morales
-am moral bump need to stop to work out of combat if both am + target are not both into combat (stop this morales masturbation jeez)
-and finally morales need to be scaled better

ex, m2 =1200
if istantly ? scaled down to 600 aoe
if dot ? scaled down to 900
if channeling ? max dmg of 1200

ex, m3= 1200 + CC (bo/kobs)
if istantly ? scaled down to 600+ cc

this is not rocket sience is clear that if a moral is istant it should not do the same dmg as a channeling or a dot morales and that classes which have access to moral tactic should be the alst to have access to something which offer no or few counter play but only awareness ( only exeptio in case of wh/we when you have classes that offer no otehr aoe tools then well came that these 2 classes offer ana oe morale nuke).

m4 can be in THEIR own world as they are for orvr what is the KD for the small scale, they are balance breakers, they should be balance breaker but only those should be, m2-m3 should help ya finish an enemy but not guarantee a math 100% to 0% life nuke.

so again common sense ppl....

m1- irrelevant or for st assist / peel in open field
m2-m3 - finishers or helpers
m4-realms balance breakers

Spoiler:

again what im sugggesting

bw/magus m2 = dot 360 degree
mara/wl m2 = channeling frontal
we/wh m2 = istantly frontal
KOBS/BO m3= istant 360 degree
core healers m2 = istant 360 degree
raze= unchanged

bw/magus m2 = (900 dmg)
mara/wl =(1200 dmg)
wh/we m2= (either 1200 istant if no rework for aoe will ever happen or 600 istantly if yes)
kobs/bo m3= (600 dmg)
core healers m2 = (600 dmg but heal 2x the ammount of dmg done)
raze = unchanged

P.S about drain, wh have the mara mirror drain but being cut out from aoe play is also out for the balance in that department; wh made more playable for aoe would most likely also translate into more balance between realms, so the idea is still the same , make classes like we/wh viable too for the aoe wb and the game will benefith a lot).
etc

too manny words Tesq, but this also could work without being as disruptive as the proposal, however is would prefere to see also the moral gain issue addressed not just the morals themselvs. I belive moral gain should be negativly affected by blobing , as blobbing and being under someones arm pit would not help moral

[Tesq]

you may have right on the gain but till the values will not scale with a progression which keep track of the good way the moral perform in practise and the values and the max stacking potential then is all uselss, Loosing time over the gain ratio is something you do for make more interesting the fight:

you need those instruments faster or slower?
is better have em slower or have em faster regarding multiple engages?

but still you need to know what tools are ok or over the top first.

[Acidic]

you may have right on the gain but till the values will not scale with a progression which keep track of the good way the moral perform in practise and the values and the max stacking potential then is all uselss, Loosing time over the gain ratio is something you do for make more interesting the fight:

you need those instruments faster or slower?
is better have em slower or have em faster regarding multiple engages?

but still you need to know what tools are ok or over the top first.

yes the moral depreciation is not covered in the suggestion i made, good point.
before numbers etc, the discution of function and carry over/pre loading morals from one fight to another needs to be though about. hmm. nothing in my head, tired

[wonshot]

so you know wonshot,
My main objection to morals is not dying, that i am good at
The problem is the combination of aoe, high damage, no mitigation, and too high an impact in the game.

The summary of the proposal is :
alter moral gain, remove aoe damage morals, make morals go though standard mitigation.

The video is simply showing morals is uable for defence and offence so arguments that they are for breaking bottlenecks is wrong, as they can be used equaly well for defending as attacking.

So here we are, you being a fully defensive tank who takes part in the ocara zoneblobs, and me on the other side trying to defeat said blob. Now that we have the backgrounds established lets look at what we both want

You: Want to remove my Aoe Morales because its not fun for you to spec into full tank, and then get blown up by unmittigated truedamage.

Me: Get pass those big annoying tanks who soak up aoe targetcap, block the DPS classes, and hinder me in getting to the backline. Where I often need to use my moral on the tankline, because they take so little damage that I have to spend more time on them than I can afford because I am presured by shear numbers you bring.


I can see from your point of view, how you find it annoying to take 1200 damage without any of it being unmitigated. Can you see from my point of view how I need this tool when I am fighting your numbers 2:1 or 3:1? I am not saying its not a tool I dont use in even fights, but thats where the game, and moral game is ballanced in my book: You can moral pump too.