[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

[wonshot]

First of all I would like to thank whoever put this much energy and thourght into this initial draft, thank you.

But as the comments might point towards, all of these class specific morals will make one hell of a nightmare in terms of balancing not just initially but for the time to come.

A little while back I made a very simple put idea proposal for a moral overhaul where the core concept of idea, was to make morals be "amplifiers" so that the gameplay is no longer based around "oh this shiney moral abilties does something fun and exciting" but instead that morals are an advantage where you get to improve your already class-designed playstyle.
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=29045&p=331224#p331224

(idea put into a random pvp instance:)
You have been involved in a fight for long enough to use either M1, M2, M3 but your playstyle and the battleoutcome is not based around some instant truedamage(current moral bombs) you press solo, or coordinated, instead you just increase healing/damage-power/ or mitigation.

It is really dumped down, is it kinda of mirrored and borring. And I by no means expect this to be a final version should you like the idea. But I think the direction makes for a much easier development cycle and better outcome in terms of balanced shipped-product.
OT:
As for the draft in this topic, it is both overwhelming to look at, and at the same time i feel like i need to see all of the other class' morals before i get a good idea about the final outcome and can chip in with feedback in terms of how this lands on a balancing scale.

The M2 for Ironbreaker seems like a direct counter to any destro melee warbands though? or am i not reading it right?

[SmackdownNinja]

Some interesting ideas for sure, but Banish Weakness is the only "oh crap" button that BG has. Sure its not optimal due to being a morale, and is only useful in certain situations, but thats what makes it balanced. Hate is already very easy to get whether you are 2h or SNB. If banish weakness gets changed then it would be nice to have another "oh crap" button so BG can still preform properly.

However it is nice to see some Morales that were over preforming get toned down to make room for less used ones. I also appreciate that you opened this up for discussion instead of just implementing it. Definitely helps to have the community involved with such large overhauls. Thanks for reading this and have a good one.

[Tom]

IBs new M2 seems extremely powerful no? I presume 2h IB are mainly small scale and to be disarmed for 10 seconds in a small scale fight, by a morale ability which i assume might be undefendable (?), sounds very powerful. Also why make it longer than the morale silencing 7s?

[anarchypark]

many have already pointed out that
any morale related to hp is OP. it need to be changed.

Haven't seen a single argument that would lead me to believe that such Morales are 'OP'.

you said it.

it would heal you to full if you used it at the right time,

self healing tanks are kinda OP in any situation, any game.
in case of BG/IB, they already have one.
no need additional healing IMO.

[Tesq]

many have already pointed out that
any morale related to hp is OP. it need to be changed.

Haven't seen a single argument that would lead me to believe that such Morales are 'OP'.

you said it.

it would heal you to full if you used it at the right time,

self healing tanks are kinda OP in any situation, any game.
in case of BG/IB, they already have one.
no need additional healing IMO.

man nope, its a morale which mean use it put in CD other morales for 60 sec which mean loose supp morales for group /wb.....it have his trade out; also it's a ista use which mean it can go pretty good or pretty bad (no duration effect). As also said its a moral that work pretty well in large scale( it is a moral which get better when it should be and is not when it shouldn't . This is exatly what balanced stuff does, scale good to not be op in small scale but be viable in both enviroment). It's also restricted to self.

to let you understand if you dont change something after self cleanse (like full self buff yourself or run) ppl will simply re full dot you/snare you and kill you.....

and self healing tanks are not op....unless you mean a "specific ib" trolling ppl that dont understand how heal debuff +focus....

[mubbl]

Gernal morals:

• moral 4 id: sounds interisting to test it, but concerns in current zerg meta
  moral 3 htl: will this one stack with the normal skill htl? if it stacks it is basicly old m4 id but better, cause of cc avoidence. is it channeling? was there a deeper reason behind it? (mgain tactics and offensive m3s on destro side -> have the choice dmg drop on m3 or m4 defensive?)
  moral 3 raze: 300 dps on a channeling spell has already huge draw backs and it is nice against zerg style in rvr
  Spoiler:

  why is 300 aoe dps to much? it is the only channeling moral and you lose htl while that duration
  moral 2 Distracting bellow: falls this under the new balance point for average players?

Class specific moral changes:

• instant damage is nice, but if you keep in mind that destro is supirior in moral meta iam not sure about that it would atleasst help against zerg meta but only on one side, question is if you already have something in the pipe for that one. also m2 300dps channeling is to much dps but 1,2k instant+utility is fine

Class Moral changes:

• Black Orc
  • yer nothing: another dilocate for destro would be better for order in my op (ib or sm?)
    Deafening Bellow: the silence was nice already, but this one sounds really strong if the targets will survive a coordinated drop, while on the other side the silence was death for healers anyways
    Walk it off: sounds interisting, but i think distracting bellow is better in most situations
    Spoiler:

    your arguement, shell dps go tanky instead for crit? they shell kill stuff and burst kills stuff in my op
    moral 1 dont think it will be better then moral cc+silence
  Choosen morals:
  • Shatter Faith: destro should be in control of moral game already and choosen have mgain tactic which will make him way better with that moral as a knight so destro should not have that one in my op, would be nice if you would share if you have something in mind for this prob
  Black Guard:
  • KW original sounds nice already, now it looks a bit like the dok m4 also maybe it would be better to get 100/5secs cause of gcd it doesnt make sense in this form( drop hate, no htl and lowering defences and bg dont have m gain)
    Spoiler:

    i am pretty sure the original thought behind vanilla kw was for rvr scale and not 6man tanks are seperated in use by the weapon they equiped or are you disagree here?
    In Malekiths Name: 10 secs cd increase? thats way to much even with cd decrease its 5 secs and everyone is already nuts about that.
    M3 AOES: it was fine in my op, maybe not against zerg but for sc and solo in additon with the other self heals bg has.
    M1 Cealnse: yes it was situational good but it was like if that happens i CAN use it to do my support roll, If changed i would think 100/5sec would be better here too
  • Ironbreaker: Moral 4 no opinion
    moral 3: how does it work? is there an internal cooldown?
    moral 2: 5 sec oh **** button is not much for a moral 2 i dont like the actual effect 10 sec dissarm
    In general: i am not sure if correct but wasnt bg already better in hate gain? why doesnt get an ib something simular? or is it not needed?
  • Kotbs: No opinion on flawless def
    solar flair was maybe to strong, but destro has tools to prevent and should use them
    M2 sounds really strong in small scale and in rvr in combination with vingilance to for that death stagger/root
  • Swordmaster: SB will that be a direct mirrow or some buffed stuff? dont think the spell is worth a m4 slot if jsut mirrow
    Moral 2 Jump: was a nice ability once every minute you could go die with you wl buddy

In general i find the changes way to destro favoured and the few reasons given why something was changed really flat, with no background information(only ib m3 have something like that). what have you planed in other aspects for example (oh no the damn road map again ) moral gain and drain, roll of class, reduction off efectiveness of defensive morals, while dmg one basicly just get buffed but most of the time for one side while the other side most of the time get nerfed.
look at bgs khaines warding:

• old one basicly made you a healer for 10 secs in rvr if yu would revert NSP cd or with the new block tactic, if there wasnt a icd that would make your grp unkillable
  new one: snb bg has already good def stats basicly it just gives a option that dok takes another moral 4 or you could chain them. Why is there a hate regain part? you can just drop of hate for some debuffs, which will be weak if you dont go for some dps spec or dps which are way to weak like cause of spec. And one of your fundamental arguments is tanks are not dps with snb.

also i find it a bit to much to discuss in one thread as a whole.

[Ototo]

I honestly don't really see that you have think this of. A lot of the Morales that you call "strange" and so is cause they have to be looked in the great scene of all the skills of a class.

What I see here will über-destroy the balance. You can't give more healing to a tank that currently heals himself nicely. You can't take out the mobility of a tank that is supposed to guard a class with way too much mobility and jumps. You can't reduce numbers from classes that pretty much have only one skill to be viable. You can't take out one of the only damage skills that a shield bearer tank has, cause for low levels tanks the damaging morale is mandatory to be able to make their job in the enemy line, and to get/keep aggro in him/her during PvE fights.

Take it as a "please, look NOT ONLY AT THE MORALE itself, but also to THE SINERGIES AND OTHER SKILLS that each tank has".

The current list is pretty much a nerf to order tanks, while also buffing destroy tanks. It is not made in purpose, I can clearly see your logic in most of them, but seems that you forgot to also check with the sinergies required for each class. That is why Wings of Heaven was there, in example, so you can move with your guarded WL, and follow the same logic that giving Hate mechanic to BG.

PD: After reading all the thread, what I see is pleased destro-only players, while worried mixed-realm and order-only seems to be the tone. It should give an idea of the arrow that you seem about to shoot to their knees. I notice also that everyone are noticing the hard punishment to SnB/PvE/huge-Warband tanks, and to order tanks in general.

[Stickzy]

Once again. What a fine change! It's even better than the aao debuff you made. i like it! 10/10

User has been removed from the balance discussions. Want to participate? then be constructive.

[Acidic]

IBs new M2 seems extremely powerful no? I presume 2h IB are mainly small scale and to be disarmed for 10 seconds in a small scale fight, by a morale ability which i assume might be undefendable (?), sounds very powerful. Also why make it longer than the morale silencing 7s?

Read the thread again and noticed this post. Have to agree this is too much by far, in an wb environment where aoe is king this could wipe a wb on its own.
10 secs disarm so no stacking as each target is disarmed as soon as hitting the IB, have two IB pop this and watch 18 destro dps twiddling thumbs for 10 secs

[adamthelc]

IBs new M2 seems extremely powerful no? I presume 2h IB are mainly small scale and to be disarmed for 10 seconds in a small scale fight, by a morale ability which i assume might be undefendable (?), sounds very powerful. Also why make it longer than the morale silencing 7s?

Read the thread again and noticed this post. Have to agree this is too much by far, in an wb environment where aoe is king this could wipe a wb on its own.
10 secs disarm so no stacking as each target is disarmed as soon as hitting the IB, have two IB pop this and watch 18 destro dps twiddling thumbs for 10 secs

It seems more likely that the duration of the morale is 10 seconds and they didnt say what the duration of the disarm is. If I am wrong and the disarm is 10 seconds, that is an excessive CC duration. Especially for a M2.