Regarding the change to SM M2 - how about keeping the pounce but tweaking it a bit? On live the next step in 1.4.9 for SM was to make SM beeing able to pounce to it's guarded target - allways sounded fun to me
(Might even make it require shield since it's a tank feature (but pls don't ))
Kind regards
K
[Dev] Tank morale overhaul
Re: Tank morale overhaul
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Re: Tank morale overhaul
I think an important question to ask is what do we want morales to be.
Let it be known most of the time I’m referring to morale 4 unless specified otherwise.
Do we want them to be “I win” buttons?
Do we want them not to be “i win” buttons?
Do we want them all to be useful and viable?
Do we want certain morales that are class unique to be useful and viable?
Do we want them to be thematic or mechanic?
What do we want morales to do?
hope it helps. I think it’s important and don’t take my suggestions too seriously it’s mainly to just get some creative ideas flowing I guess
Let it be known most of the time I’m referring to morale 4 unless specified otherwise.
Do we want them to be “I win” buttons?
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- Collateral
- Posts: 1494
Re: Tank morale overhaul
I've been playing in organized wbs for 3 years here, most of that time spent in a hardcore environment, so yes clearly I'm trolling...And what's with that attitude? I have no quarrels with you.Xergon wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 1:06 amAre you trolling or are you just ignorant ? or both ?
"I die because group of ppl press 1 button ?" So you want to tank zillion ppl because you think you should cuz you spent time to gear up your character ? Cmon man be real for sec... Even as guild premade WB is hard to execute proper morale drop in zerg fights not only because enemy use CC but also because body blocking from allies is annoying.
If you have 11k wounds (which every serious Tank in RvR should have) so thats like 10x 1200 Morals2 or 7x 1800 Morals4 (Slayer) im not gonna consider talking about 2400 Morals4 because classes that can do that are not WB viable...
So please dont tell me that you die to 1 button, you die to 10 ppl executing/coordinating proper moral drop, which you can very easily interrupt.
You must be the one who is trolling, since I don't know how you can even say that coordinated morales in zerg fights can be "easily interrupted". Be my guest in interrupting instant morales, and when people have immunities from all the randoms spamming punts and staggers. And no it's not hard to do a morale drop in a proper organized wb that knows what it's doing, give me a break. One person literally has to do a count down, then everyone pushes their button, it's that simple. Even in chat you can do a count down, and if half the people listen it's enough. Keep in mind that this doesn't HAVE to happen instantly, it can be in succesion (and usually is cuz only robots could to it instantly), meaning 3-4 people at a time. Body blocking is a non-issue, you need a couple seconds at most to come into position. Plus most morales have good enough range to be effective even if you're body blocked.
I never said I wanted to tank a million people. I said I would rather die from abilities than instant, unmitigatable damage. I have no problem with dying. But I have a problem when the game trivialises things. And instant morale damage is trivialising rvr, and has always been. That's why I would rather see tanks getting morales that buff damage/crits/defenses/resists or debuff damage/healing and what not. Keep in mind that morales stack with everything else, so there is potential for some great synergies.
Re: Tank morale overhaul
change morale drain to: u cant use morale in next 10 sec in aoe zoneNoRKaLKiLLa wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:51 pmFurthermore, now in the hypothetical that All M4's are now freely speccable, we first establish that baseline archetype morale that all others should be held to and adjust the remaining morales such that they're viable alternatives dependent upon different imagined friendly and enemy group sizes, compositions and battlefield orientation (open ground vs funnels, mobile enemy groups versus static, ranged versus melee centric etc.)Spoiler:
On the road to bringing M4's all on an even playing field with each other, the first thing I would do before anything else is remove entirely the morale drain components from m4. This will obviously gut some M4s, but will allow us to give them back something in return in regards to utility.
Morale drain components are then moved to M3 and either become another option for M3s or the morale drain is added to existing M3 abilities with the caveat that a single morale drain is NOT capable of removing more than 1200 Morale. M3's are now capable of being used to bring another player/s from M4 to m3, m3 to m1, or m2 to to 0 morale. Morale-Drain-Morales are now no longer "haha I used my M4, now the 6 of you have no morales at all. gitgud."
Thoughts?
- Collateral
- Posts: 1494
Re: Tank morale overhaul
That would be completely broken. It's even stronger than a full morale drain (you can at least buiod to m1 or m2 after it) and especially a 1200 morale drain, since it would prevent you from using even m3 or m2, which can be useful as well if you don't have m4.
I think morale drain should be left to abilities and tactics (which order lacks obviously). Having such strong morales like solar flare will always make them more useful than anything else, since morales play such a huge role. It's about balancing things out, and as I mentioned before, this equation has many variables. So you can't look at morales without looking at abilities and tactics.
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Re: Tank morale overhaul
Disagree. If U survive 10 sec u can use m4. Not wait ages for next m4 like we have nowCollateral wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 9:19 amThat would be completely broken. It's even stronger than a full morale drain (you can at least buiod to m1 or m2 after it) and especially a 1200 morale drain, since it would prevent you from using even m3 or m2, which can be useful as well if you don't have m4.
I think morale drain should be left to abilities and tactics (which order lacks obviously). Having such strong morales like solar flare will always make them more useful than anything else, since morales play such a huge role. It's about balancing things out, and as I mentioned before, this equation has many variables. So you can't look at morales without looking at abilities and tactics.
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- Collateral
- Posts: 1494
Re: Tank morale overhaul
If you didn't read what I wrote before, it would make no difference because you would die in those 10 seconds without m4 or m2. You die even WITH m4 up. That's why your suggestion is even more broken imo, since you couldn't use any morale whatsoever.
Re: Tank morale overhaul
Don't get the constant tank nerfs. ID doesn't need a nerf it is a core tank ability and doesn't save you from morale dumps. Avoidance as a defense mechanic is flawed because flanking your target with melee damage completely avoids it.
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Re: Tank morale overhaul
So if we die even WITH m4 up we are doomed xd. Not all fights U should survive.Collateral wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 9:36 amIf you didn't read what I wrote before, it would make no difference because you would die in those 10 seconds without m4 or m2. You die even WITH m4 up. That's why your suggestion is even more broken imo, since you couldn't use any morale whatsoever.
Re: Tank morale overhaul
M4
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.
M3
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.
Raze: Will have a requirement of a 2h weapon. This as tanks with shields are support and not dps.
M2
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.
Black Orc:
M4
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.
Can't touch us: Will be changed to instantly give party in 100 feet 200 AP as well as a 4500 absorb shield. Made to match shield of Valor as it was clearly stronger.
Yer nothing: Entire rework will be 300 dmg each 0.5 sec with micro knockback in a 30 feet range. 3 Sec duration. Original implementation was simply crap with no damage and a small morale drain.
M3
Deafening bellow: Silence component will be removed and replaced with a 1sec buildup increase debuff for 10 secs. Slightly longer duration but made worse as a 5 sec silence to all hit in an aoe is very strong and made all other choices no choice.
M2
Walk it off!: toughness component removed and will be replaced by reduction of crit damage by 25% for 20 sec. Toughness is less effective and this change would make it interesting in the crit meta that DPS dealers usually build on.
M1
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.
Chosen
M4
Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
Shatter faith: Total rework to match solar flare. 30 feet aoe with 800 damage and drains 1200 morale of all hit. Original implementation was crap as it was the damage with a simple dispel.
M2
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.
Blackguard
M4
Blast of hatred: Total rework. 1200 dmg instantly and knockback in a 40 feet line. Damage was crap.
Khaines warding: Total rework. Increase avoidance on party (not BG) by 20% for 15 sec and the BG gains a 3000 absorb for 15 sec and 100 hate. Original implementation was crap as it was a small heal dependant on a block inside the party which would most likely only be from the BG himself...
In Malekeiths name: 45 feet aoe with 1200 dmg and a +10 cooldown increaser for all hit that last for 8 sec. Increased range and changed silence to CD increaser to make it easier to hit with and to still allow it to be disruptive but not too strong.
M3
Armor of eternal servitude: Will have its heal increased to 7200 over 20 seconds. Original implementation had a crap heal.
M1
Banish Weakness: Healing component removed and instead gives 20 hate instantly. The heal was crap and with the hate increase you can dump hate and then use this M1 to get defensive tactics again and/or another hate dump.
Ironbreaker
M4
Strength in numbers: party avoidance lowered to 20%. Original implementation was simply slightly too strong.
Earthen renewal: Total rework. Party in 100 feet will have hexes, curses and ailments removed and buffed for 10 seconds with “on enemy cast deal 400 dmg back to attacker”. Original implementation was simply crap and not worth taking in the tree. This way the IB should be able to turn the tide possibly in a tight spot with the damage back.
M2
Skin of iron: Total rework. Disarm attackers on melee hit for 10 seconds. Compared to the standard M2 with 100% block this should not be taken unless 2h which for a generic morale is not ideal.
M1
Rock Clutch: damage increased to 900 and root reduced to 5 sec. Slightly more damage for the IB instantly and then lower root to make it more tempting to take over demolishing strike.
Knight of the blazing sun:
M4
Flawless Defense: avoidance lowered to 30%. Original implementation was simply too strong.
Solar flare: reduce morale with 1200 instead of full morale wipe. Original implementation was simply too strong as it could negate an entire push from the opponent force in a crowded defense. There was no other morale with the same power and has to be tuned down.
M3
No escape: Total rework. 900 dmg and 5 sec root in a 30 feet aoe. Original implementation was simply too strong.
M2
Emperor's Champion: Total rework. Removes all CC (like juggernaut), CC immune and 20% move speed for 10 sec. Original implementation was simply too strong, giving too much “free” stats on something that you can in practice under the best conditions have a 50% uptime on. Instead it will be a ability to make you close to impossible to escape from.
Swordmaster
M4
Shadow Blades: morale drain removed and replaced with a choppa pull effect. Morale drain was simply bad and replaced with something more fun.
M2
Wings of heaven: open for suggestions here. But it has to be replaced. Order already have more gap closers and this is a heavy armor wearing tank career, a pounce does not fit here.
M1
Guard of steel: toughness component changed to a party increase of 800 armor. The armor increase fits better for fluff and also makes it more useful against melee but less useful against magic.
TLDR
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.
Spoiler:
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
M2
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.
Spoiler:
M4
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.
Can't touch us: Will be changed to instantly give party in 100 feet 200 AP as well as a 4500 absorb shield. Made to match shield of Valor as it was clearly stronger.
Yer nothing: Entire rework will be 300 dmg each 0.5 sec with micro knockback in a 30 feet range. 3 Sec duration. Original implementation was simply crap with no damage and a small morale drain.
Spoiler:
Deafening bellow: Silence component will be removed and replaced with a 1sec buildup increase debuff for 10 secs. Slightly longer duration but made worse as a 5 sec silence to all hit in an aoe is very strong and made all other choices no choice.
Spoiler:
Walk it off!: toughness component removed and will be replaced by reduction of crit damage by 25% for 20 sec. Toughness is less effective and this change would make it interesting in the crit meta that DPS dealers usually build on.
Spoiler:
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.
Spoiler:
M4
Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
Shatter faith: Total rework to match solar flare. 30 feet aoe with 800 damage and drains 1200 morale of all hit. Original implementation was crap as it was the damage with a simple dispel.
Spoiler:
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.
Spoiler:
M4
Blast of hatred: Total rework. 1200 dmg instantly and knockback in a 40 feet line. Damage was crap.
Khaines warding: Total rework. Increase avoidance on party (not BG) by 20% for 15 sec and the BG gains a 3000 absorb for 15 sec and 100 hate. Original implementation was crap as it was a small heal dependant on a block inside the party which would most likely only be from the BG himself...
In Malekeiths name: 45 feet aoe with 1200 dmg and a +10 cooldown increaser for all hit that last for 8 sec. Increased range and changed silence to CD increaser to make it easier to hit with and to still allow it to be disruptive but not too strong.
Spoiler:
Armor of eternal servitude: Will have its heal increased to 7200 over 20 seconds. Original implementation had a crap heal.
Spoiler:
Banish Weakness: Healing component removed and instead gives 20 hate instantly. The heal was crap and with the hate increase you can dump hate and then use this M1 to get defensive tactics again and/or another hate dump.
Spoiler:
M4
Strength in numbers: party avoidance lowered to 20%. Original implementation was simply slightly too strong.
Earthen renewal: Total rework. Party in 100 feet will have hexes, curses and ailments removed and buffed for 10 seconds with “on enemy cast deal 400 dmg back to attacker”. Original implementation was simply crap and not worth taking in the tree. This way the IB should be able to turn the tide possibly in a tight spot with the damage back.
Spoiler:
Skin of iron: Total rework. Disarm attackers on melee hit for 10 seconds. Compared to the standard M2 with 100% block this should not be taken unless 2h which for a generic morale is not ideal.
Spoiler:
Rock Clutch: damage increased to 900 and root reduced to 5 sec. Slightly more damage for the IB instantly and then lower root to make it more tempting to take over demolishing strike.
Spoiler:
M4
Flawless Defense: avoidance lowered to 30%. Original implementation was simply too strong.
Solar flare: reduce morale with 1200 instead of full morale wipe. Original implementation was simply too strong as it could negate an entire push from the opponent force in a crowded defense. There was no other morale with the same power and has to be tuned down.
Spoiler:
No escape: Total rework. 900 dmg and 5 sec root in a 30 feet aoe. Original implementation was simply too strong.
Spoiler:
Emperor's Champion: Total rework. Removes all CC (like juggernaut), CC immune and 20% move speed for 10 sec. Original implementation was simply too strong, giving too much “free” stats on something that you can in practice under the best conditions have a 50% uptime on. Instead it will be a ability to make you close to impossible to escape from.
Spoiler:
M4
Shadow Blades: morale drain removed and replaced with a choppa pull effect. Morale drain was simply bad and replaced with something more fun.
Spoiler:
Wings of heaven: open for suggestions here. But it has to be replaced. Order already have more gap closers and this is a heavy armor wearing tank career, a pounce does not fit here.
Spoiler:
Guard of steel: toughness component changed to a party increase of 800 armor. The armor increase fits better for fluff and also makes it more useful against melee but less useful against magic.
Spoiler:
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