IB not enough Grudges

[Battlefield]

IB best buffs in the game, also pretty much the best burst out of any mdps in the game and you cry about grudges in solo play... funny (I also play IB)
E: punt could use some work, but so could SM/BO punts, and IB has a much higher burst with a little bit of setting up... So tough luck I guess.

If you played for IB all the time you wouldn't write this and BO and SM have the best damage among tanks.

On my lowbie IB

[Kenyo]

Posted on behalf of Bulgy RR85 Black Guard

There is a very good reason why the BG generates more Hate then the IB does with Grudge's, and that is that the IB has far more survivability then the BG has. The IB has better core and tree abilities

The BG survivability is built around hate, the IB's is not so much built around Grudge's

IB has a 660 Armor tactic, which the BG does not have, plus the IB has a core a ability “Guarded Attack” which give the IB 990 armor which has no cool down. Yet the BG's Force of Fury is 13 points in the Path of Loathing with a 20 sec cool down,

Which means IB's don't even have to us Armor Pots

Oathbound, give you 25% parry for 10 sec's with no cool down, and you telling me you cant get 15 Grudge's that is 3 hits on you, The BG has to take a tactic which builds the Black Guards parry with Hate. As soon as the BG starts using Hate it's parry starts to drop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jek9xcAxh0

IB Shield Mastery 10% block plus the IB only takes 95% Damage when holding a shield. The BG Shielded by Hate, 1% block per 10 hate, yet again as soon as the Black Guard starts using Hate it's block starts to drop.

That is just a few of the advantages that the IB has over the BG

You have a tactic which lets you build Grudge's faster, you have a choice take that tactic or take an Armor tactic, the BG does not have an armor tactic.

If you want the IB to build Grudge's faster, then there also has to be rework on the BG so that it has the same survivability as the IB. Or there would have to adjustments to a lot of the IB abilities to bring them inline with the Black Guard.

You can't have it both way.

Bulgy - BG
YouTube
TheSepticmeg
Grudge's
Image

[Farrul]

Posted on behalf of Bulgy RR85 Black Guard

There is a very good reason why the BG generates more Hate then the IB does with Grudge's, and that is that the IB has far more survivability then the BG has. The IB has better core and tree abilities

Under no circumstances do IB have more survivabiliy than BG, arguably SnB BG is one of the toughest tank in the game to bring down if all they want is to survive and 2h BG can be very tough, tougher than 2h IBs. What IB does have is a better SnB WB spec(utility for the team) but a worse 2h spec.

As for better core and tree abilities i do not agree at all, BG has some of the best stuffs in the game, a knockdown lasting 5sec to a super punt that sends you flying half accross the scenario map or how about a tactic that lets BG softcap toughness from a 6xxish base, aoe debuff to block/parry etc, the mighty aoe crit debuff /wounds (aoe?) debuff, BG got many goodies.

I'd say they are evenly matched, one being more buff oriented and the other debuff oriented.

The BG survivability is built around hate, the IB's is not so much built around Grudge's

IB has a 660 Armor tactic, which the BG does not have, plus the IB has a core a ability “Guarded Attack” which give the IB 990 armor which has no cool down. Yet the BG's Force of Fury is 13 points in the Path of Loathing with a 20 sec cool down,

Which means IB's don't even have to us Armor Pots

Oathbound, give you 25% parry for 10 sec's with no cool down, and you telling me you cant get 15 Grudge's that is 3 hits on you, The BG has to take a tactic which builds the Black Guards parry with Hate. As soon as the BG starts using Hate it's parry starts to drop

IB Shield Mastery 10% block plus the IB only takes 95% Damage when holding a shield. The BG Shielded by Hate, 1% block per 10 hate, yet again as soon as the Black Guard starts using Hate it's block starts to drop.

That is just a few of the advantages that the IB has over the BG

Apples and oranges.

Where is IB ability to sofcap toughtness from 1 tactic? IB does have more access to armor true, but BG has more access to toughness.

So you're saying IBs survivability is not based on grudges, then how about this:

Oathbond: 15 grudges
Avenging the Debt: 25 grudges
Runic Shield: 30 grudges
Vengeful strike: 10 grudges
Away with Ye: 25 grudges
Kneecaper: Scales to 100 grudges
Stubborn as stone: 5 grudges
Watchn learn: 15 grudges (parry)
Grumble n mutter: 10 grudges/3 sec/30 sec.

that statement is wrong since more than half of the IB's defensive utility and some of the most important buffs are based on grudges. The real difference is that BG defenses seem to be scaling more from Hatred through tactics but IB requires more active use from Grudges to maintain defensive buffs.

Clearly both classes need their resources yet 1 of them is more deprived of it than the other, hence the imbalance.

You have a tactic which lets you build Grudge's faster, you have a choice take that tactic or take an Armor tactic, the BG does not have an armor tactic.

If you want the IB to build Grudge's faster, then there also has to be rework on the BG so that it has the same survivability as the IB. Or there would have to adjustments to a lot of the IB abilities to bring them inline with the Black Guard.

You can't have it both way.

That's because BG has different choices to make, like 2 x toughness increase tactics(one providing more than 300 toughness).

So we're back to square one and the issue remains: one get 5 /hit for free and the other must use up a tactic slot effectively becoming a 3 tactic class in comparison.

Furthermore BG has the Hate regenerating channel attack low in tree for superfluos amounts of Hatred something IB can't match, really there is no balance justification for Rising Anger taking up a tactic slot.

As for BG SnB rework, i do think their SnB spec could become more attractive from a team utility point of view and buffed a bit, but that's a different topic.

[vanjelis]

furthermore tactics like sweet revenge that requires to be above 50 grudges to activate( The BG equvialent only requires hatred spending making it far superior mechanically).

I'd trade in a heartbeat, especially if it becomes baseline for BG rather than a mastery point. I don't play an IB but sounds like they're heavily incentivised to sit at 100 grudges (if not at least over 50) meaning after a brief ramp you have 100% uptime. Compared that to BG having it for 5sec after a hate spending attack. I appreciate the mechanical flavour of the hate holding / spending trade-offs, but no it's absolutely not superior. I'd go as far as saying it's far FAR worse

[zgolec]

The problem i see with IB is that IB punt got nerfed to ground comparing to BG. ON live it was grudge related here its just as it is. CH punt > KOTBS punt, BG > IB, just SM = BO.

...also BG got hate from oath and for hitting things. For the latter IB have to use tactic...

[Farrul]

furthermore tactics like sweet revenge that requires to be above 50 grudges to activate( The BG equvialent only requires hatred spending making it far superior mechanically).

I'd trade in a heartbeat, especially if it becomes baseline for BG rather than a mastery point. I don't play an IB but sounds like they're heavily incentivised to sit at 100 grudges (if not at least over 50) meaning after a brief ramp you have 100% uptime. Compared that to BG having it for 5sec after a hate spending attack. I appreciate the mechanical flavour of the hate holding / spending trade-offs, but no it's absolutely not superior. I'd go as far as saying it's far FAR worse

Then i suggest you try the Ironbreaker 2h for some time, please try it without Rising Anger or Dwarven Riposte( which is the point here) and see if your opinion still holds true( it wont )

BG crit buff is basically 100% uptime as long as bg is attacking and easy to maintain from the start. IB crit buff may or may not be active depending on circumstances and never will from the start, as with many IB stuff there is always the opportunity cost to take into account.

[Fey]

I think we need more opinions from people who don't play ironbreaker.

[Fallenkezef]

I think we need more opinions from people who don't play ironbreaker.

From people who don't play IB OR BG

[Amdus]

Does order ever get tired about making threads whining on how "bad" their classes are? As someone that plays NA mostly I find this lack of self-awareness disturbing. Sometimes I wonder if you have an evil intent to kill this game with the extravagant and bizarre suggestions you make and how avid you are at mental gymnastics to try to justify on why "you need" a buff. We really live in times of rampant narcissism. Simply astounding.

[DirkDaring]

Does order ever get tired about making threads whining on how "bad" their classes are? As someone that plays NA mostly I find this lack of self-awareness disturbing. Sometimes I wonder if you have an evil intent to kill this game with the extravagant and bizarre suggestions you make and how avid you are at mental gymnastics to try to justify on why "you need" a buff. We really live in times of rampant narcissism. Simply astounding.

We are slowly watching Idiocracy become a reality in our time, I guess that 500 years in the future estimate was way off lol