Upcoming balance patch: Black Orc

[Culexus]

With the ability rework now live, we can start looking toward the future of potential balance changes for the classes. So let’s start with the Wimp Lo of RoR, the Black Orc.

Many a forum post has gone into the state the BO is currently in and I don’t think anyone will argue against it being the worst tank in the game. We are the worst destro solo roam tank, have no place in 6v6, and the only thing we offer at warband level is being a guard bot. We can still find place in a warband just by the virtue of being a tank, but offer nothing a CH or BG can’t do better. Our stance mechanic has almost no upside to compensate it’s downside, our bellows are lacklustre and our abilities are anti-synergistic or just plain worse than other classes. We also lack any sort of distinct identity as a class. Where as the Chosen has amazing buffs and the BG is a 2h debuff machine, BO is sort of just, there. Not really doing anything well or leaning in to any sort of play style.

With that being said, I believe the BO has the foundation of being a great class that can be a viable choice in all content. I know none of these proposed changes are likely to happen, but I just want to give an idea of what could be done with the class as a whole, rather than tweaking an ability here and there and leaving the fundamental problems of the class unaddressed. This is going to be a very in depth look at the BO as a whole and as there’s a lot to go through it’s going to be a very long post. So grab yourself a coffee and let’s get on with it…

***EDIT*** I'VE NOW INCLUDED A TL;DR VERSION AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST

The Black Orc

The Black Orc is big, mean and green! Where as the other tanks focus on fancy tricks and battle finesse, the Black Orc just slaps on thick armour plates, gets stuck in and gets down to Krumpin.

Playstyle: BO will be a damage tank that focusses on dealing, debuffing and protecting against physical damage. Although you won’t be able to bring the all round buffs and debuffs to the table that CH and BG can, you assist by applying extra dps pressure through crits. The BO hits hard (for a tank) and is super tough vs physical damage, but offers little vs magic damage or healing debuffs and lacks the mobility options of other tanks.

Considerations for balance: I’ve tried to give the BO distinct role that follows the thematic of the class based on its lore while still relying on the the other tanks to fill gaps that he lacks in. Balance amongst the tanks should be that you wish that you can take them all in a group as they all offer something useful, but have to compromise, which results in different play styles and tactics depending on which tanks you bring. As our mirror on Order side, Sword Master will fill the Order role of their damage tank and benefit from the changes to mechanics and can mirror any of the abilities listed here that it already has.

Balance Changes: Core Mechanics

The Combo Mechanic

Current Problem: The combo mechanic currently doesn’t offer enough to compensate for it’s downside of not being able to use an ability whenever you need it. It only removes ap from best plan abilities and offers nothing at all to gud plan abilities. As a player experience you can’t really feel any positive in game effects from it so it just becomes a pointless chore you have to work around rather than a cool mechanic that makes the class distinct.

Change: Combo system now increases critical chance by 10% for the Gud Plan and 20% for the best plan. Best plan abilities will still not cost ap.

Reason for change: Provides a buff to Gud Plan abilities and goes with the class theme of being a damage tank. Makes the combo system feel strong and that there’s a good pay-off for the downsides of the mechanic. Allows a player to see the effects of the mechanic during gameplay that gives the class a distinct feel playing it in comparison to other classes. The no ap on Best Plan will be kept as the class has already been built around this and more abilities would need to be changed for the ap difference. If this is too op ap can be added.

Bellows

Current Problem: None of the bellows are particularly good in their current form. Da Biggest has pointless stat steals and doesn’t synergize with other abilities (what’s the point of running No Choppin’ Me when you run Da Biggest?). Da Toughest is just plain terrible with a really low wounds buff that can only proc every 10 sec so doesn’t synergize with tactics that proc off bellows. The recent change to Da Greenest means you’re actively punished for being tanky as a tank.

Change: Da Biggest! - Removes Ballistic skill, Intelligence, and Willpower from stat steal effect.
Change: Da Toughest! - On defence. Increase block, parry , dodge or disrupt by 10% for 10sec
Change: Da Greenest - On Defence or hit

Reason for change: All bellows now have 4 buffs which makes them all equally viable for bellow procs. Da Biggest gets rid of the junk stats that no one cares about buffing or debuffing making it more useful as a group buff/debuff and sticking with the theme of not offering anything against casters/healers. Da Toughest now procs off defence rather than on hit to fit better with the tank tree and provides an alternate defensive buff if you have a chosen in your group with resist aura. Da Greenest is kept basically the same but is reverted to previous version to allow it to proc more often and be more reliable. None of the bellow buffs can refresh themselves to stop tactic procs getting out of control.

Balance Changes: Tactics & Abilities

Core Tactics

A’ve Another One (Tactic)
Current Problem: Pointless tactic that’s never used.
Change: Replace with - “’Eavy Metal” - 10% reduced chance to defend against attacks in Gud and Best plan.
Reason for change: Mirrors SM tactic “Poised Attacks”. Replaces a bad tactic with a good one that makes use of our class mechanic.

Lookin’ For Opp’tunity (Tactic)
Current Problem: Remove morale on an ability only used for PvE. Junk Tactic that’s never used.
Change: Replace with - “You Got Nuffin’” from Da Boss tree.
Reason for change: You Got Nuffin’ is a core tactic for SM but we have to pay mastery points for it.

Dat Was Great (Tactic)
Current Problem: Wot Amour? is normally spammed anyway so doesn’t need increased duration and toughness debuff is already covered by Da Biggest.
Change: Replace with - “Armed To Da Teef”. The great weapon requirement from T’ree Hit Combo and the Shield requirement from Tuffer ‘n Nails no longer apply
Reason for change: A fun way of making the BO more lore accurate with the ability to switch between different weapon types. Makes T’ree Hit Combo available to SnB tanks again, but have to give up a tactic slot to get it.

Masteries

Path of Da’ Brawler

Keep it going (Tactic)
Current Problem: Not really useful outside of PvE mob farming and not worth a tactic slot.
Change: Keeps damage buff and adds 990 armour reduction debuff
Reason for change: And just like that 2h BO has a place in a warband. Fits with the theme of the class.

Arm Breaka
Current Problem: Not a terrible ability but the replacement fits better.
Change: Replace with: “U’re Avin’ It!” - removes ap drain and gives +10% crit for 10 sec. No cooldown.
Reason for change: Gives the BO another crit boost outside of the mechanic in a similar way to IB. The extra crit to help it do damage to fulfil it’s role as dps assist tank. BO relies on crits for damage as it doesn’t have the consistency of spirit damage like the SM.

Gork Smash! (Tactic)
Current Problem: This is now the class mechanic so does nothing.
Change: Replace with - +25% armour pen for 10 sec on parry. Cannot refresh.
Reason for change: Need to put a new tactic here. Gives BO the same armour pen boost as other classes to help try and mirror the spirit damage potential of SM.

Path of Da’ Toughest

Ya missed me
Current Problem: Only works for SnB. As this is single target it is most useful ins small scale where SnB isn’t used.
Change: On block or parry
Reason for change: Allows to be used in 2h spec so can be used in small scale. Provides the BO with a powerful anti physical damage debuff that increases it’s viability in 6v6 matches. This is a must do change in my opinion.

Big slash
Current Problem: Punt/knock-down abilities should not be tied behind the combo system so they can be used as and when they are needed. Not using a CC at the moment you require it can be the difference between a victory or a wipe.
Change: No longer requires a plan.
Reason for change: Allows use on demand.

Tuffer ‘n Nails
Current Problem: Only provides an armour buff that is overridden buy Da Greenest and not worth using as soon as you start using armour pots. Normally removed from the action bar as it offers nothing.
Change: Move to Best plan. Adds 10% reduced armour penetration to ability.
Reason for change: Provides a unique BO buff that fits with the theme and makes the ability worth using.

Less Stabbin’ Me (Tactic)
Current Problem: Who cares about a parry/block buff for 1 gcd? Only time it’s ever useful is for holding the line.
Change: Replace with: “U Fink U’re Ard?” When you apply Save Da Runts to an ally their chance to be critically hit is reduced by 25% for 5sec. Must be within 30ft.
Reason for change: Provides a buff on ally to encourage guard swapping. Does nothing most of the time, but when used by a good tank that can quickly guard swap can make a big difference to your groups survivability. This wouldn’t be mirrored to SM as could be op combined with Lingering Intimidation.

Stop Hittin the runts (Tactic)
Current Problem: Actually a pretty good tactic but fits better in the boss tree as it’s more of a buff. Change listed under boss tree.
Change: Move to Path of Da Boss. Replace with - “Green iz Best!” 600 absorb on self to mirror SM.
Reason for change: Da Toughest tree is all about tanking so adds a tanky skill to keep in line with the rest of the tree.

Not in Da Face!
Current Problem: Doesn’t fit with the tank tree that focusses on Damage mitigation and CC.
Change: Swapped with Down Ya Go From Da Boss tree.
Reason for change: Puts the must have tanking cc in the tank tree and puts Not in Da Face! With the other buffs/debuffs in Da Boss. Ability remains unchanged.

Mor’ Hardcore (Tactic)
Current Problem: Useless tactic that’s the top tactic of the tank tree.
Change: 120 wound stat steal to Tuffer ‘n Nails. Cannot refresh more than once every 10sec.
Reason for change: Provides the wounds buff that was lost with the change to Da Toughest bellow but now only effects you. 120 to match wounds debuff of other tanks and make the self buff not pointless. Now worthy of a top of tree tactic slot.

We’z Bigger
Current Problem: Doesn’t remove active cc, those hit by cc are already under the effect of immunity, really short duration.
Change: increase cd to 40sec. Removes all cc and gives immunity to all cc for 6 seconds. 10% group speed boost during this time.
Reason for change: Effectively juggernaut that effects the whole group. The immunity to cc prevents getting re-snared instantly and at a increased duration to make it worth it. Gives a small speed buff as well to fit with it being a mobility buff ability.

Path of Da’ Boss

Big Swing
Current Problem: Strength debuff already provided by Da Biggest. Really low damage. Doesn’t offer much for its 50ap cost.
Change: Remove strength debuff, increase damage, gains interrupt, 10sec cooldown
Reason for change: Aoe interrupt is far more useful than strength debuff and allows it to still have a purpose if running Da Biggest. 10sec cooldown added so it can’t just be spammed.

Savin’ Me Hide
Current Problem: Toughness buff not needed with Da Biggest. Magic damage reduction doesn’t fit the theme of the class.
Change: 160 toughness. 20% physical damage reduction for group.
Reason for change: 160 toughness makes it still worth keeping the buff up when using Da Biggest or with CH toughness aura. Physical damage reduction matches the theme of the class.

You got Nuffin’ (Tactic)
Current Problem: Moved to core tactics to match with SM.
Change: Replaced with Stop Hittin’ the runts. 20ap for group when war bellow triggers
Reason for change: Halves the amount of ap but now effects the whole group to give BO a more consistent group ap regen.

Rock ‘Ard
Current Problem: Inferior to SM absorb for no apparent reason.
Change: Changes to mirror SM. Both gain 100ft range.
Reason for change: To mirror SM. No reason we should have an inferior version of the same ability. Range increased to be more reliable as a group buff.

Big Brawlin’ (Tactic)
Current Problem: 20% snare and pointless disorient not worth a tactic slot. Should never have been so heavily nerfed.
Change: 40% Snare for 5sec
Reason for change: Goes back to the original snare but removes the build-up timer. Interrupt and snare is strong enough with Big Swing. As Big Swing now has a 10sec cooldown it can’t be spammed which was the reason for the nerf.

Down Ya Go
Current Problem: Must take cc ability locked in a tree full of buffs/debuffs
Change: Swap with Not in da Face!. No longer needs a plan
Reason for change: Puts must have tanking cc in the tanking tree. No longer requires a plan to Allow use on demand.

No Choppin’ Me (Tactic)
Current Problem: Totally pointless if you run Da Biggest. Weapon skill for group is only useful for a very specific party setup and is already provided by Da Biggest. Toughness buff is pointless if the party contain a CH with toughness aura or run with Da Biggest.
Change: Increase the weapon skill buff from Follow ‘me Lead to 240.
Reason for change: Giving a bigger weapon skill boost to yourself and your defensive target is better than giving it to the group, most of which rarely benefit from it. Makes Follow ‘me Lead useful even when running Da Biggest.

WAAAAAAAGH!
Current Problem: Corp debuff doesn’t fit with the class theme and is pointless if you have a chosen running a resist aura. AA damage increase is good but only really useful in small scale where SnB tanks are not required.
Change:-5sec cooldown reduction to mirror SM
Reason for change: So much has already been written about why BO should have this there’s no point going into it again. Chop Fasta! Removed from Choppa to solve the problem of 2 cooldown reduction abilities on destro.

Whew! That as a lot of reading.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to fix the BO and hope these rework ideas can be useful when making considerations for the future balance patch and beyond. I’d love to get feedback from high level BO players on these ideas and would love to hear your own. If you wish to offer criticism for these ideas please do so constructively, just saying something is op, still underpowered or that the BO just sucks doesn’t help without giving a well explained reason why. Please also don’t derail this into why the BO sucks currently, we all already know that, this is about ideas for improvements for the future.

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TL;DR VERSION - Please read full description above for more info on the reasons for the change and why it was made.

Combo Mechanic
+10%/20% crit chance on gud/best plan. Basically the BO/SM crit tactic is now the mechanic.

Bellows
All now have 4 procs to work better with proc tactics.
Da Biggest! - Removes Ballistic skill, Intelligence, and Willpower from stat steal effect.
Da Toughest! - On defence. Increase block, parry , dodge or disrupt by 10% for 10sec
Da Greenest - On Defence or hit

Core tactics

A’ve Another One (Tactic) - 10% reduced chance to defend against attacks in Gud and Best plan.
Lookin’ For Opp’tunity (Tactic) - replaced by You Got Nuffin
Dat Was Great (Tactic) - The great weapon requirement from T’ree Hit Combo and the Shield requirement from Tuffer ‘n Nails no longer apply

Path of Da’ Brawler

Keep it going (Tactic) - aoe armour debuff
Arm Breaka - Removes ap drain. Adds 10% crit for 10sec
Gork Smash! (Tactic) - +25% armour pen on parry

Path of Da’ Toughest

Ya missed me - on block or parry
Big slash - No longer requires a plan.
Tuffer ‘n Nails - 10% reduced armour penetration
Less Stabbin’ Me (Tactic) - 25% crit reduction for 5sec to guard target when applying guard
Stop Hittin the runts (Tactic) - 600 absorb on defence (SM mirror)
Not in Da Face! - Swaps places with Down Ya Go
Mor’ Hardcore (Tactic) - 120 wounds stat steal to Tuffer ‘n Nails. 10sec refresh
We’z Bigger - increase cd to 40sec. Removes all cc and gives immunity to all cc for 6 seconds. 10% group speed boost during this time.

Path of Da’ Boss

Big Swing - Remove strength debuff. Now an interrupt. Increase damage. 10sec cooldown
Savin’ Me Hide - 160 toughness. 20% physical damage reduction for group
You got Nuffin’ (Tactic) - 20ap for group when war bellow triggers
Rock ‘Ard - Mirror SM version
Big Brawlin’ (Tactic) - 40% snare
Down Ya Go - Swap with Not in Da face!. No longer requires a plan.
No Choppin’ Me (Tactic) - Increase the weapon skill buff from Follow ‘me Lead to 240.
WAAAAAAAGH! - Chop fasta to mirror SM. Give choppa something else.

[Zxul]

Here is one that I would want to see more- give black orcs pounce, and make them make visual craters + do aoe dmg when they land.

[Dackjanielz]

Ahhh, the one with the squeeky shoes....

[Everdin]

Could you please provide such a thread for every tank in the game so we can get rid of mdps?

I understand why some people, me included, have a big wishlist what would make their specific chars the new big thing, but keeping in mind the health of the game, this is not a great way to do things.

This is no balance proposal, this is a wishlist for a plate coated dps with +critdamage, a lot of crit/weaponskill and nearly no downsides, and if possible give everything for group.

I get it, BO does not provide much compared to BG and Chosen, but at least he hit like a truck, while I agree on there is something to do with BO, damage should be the last to focus on.

- All classes have tactics and abilitys that are not really in use due to other classes provide similar effects, thats not a blorc specific issue

- All classes have tactics and abilitys that are not in use because they feel useless, especially with tactics there is a "BIS" to take, at the end you need to pick 4 and the rest is more or less never in use

[Culexus]

Could you please provide such a thread for every tank in the game so we can get rid of mdps?

I understand why some people, me included, have a big wishlist what would make their specific chars the new big thing, but keeping in mind the health of the game, this is not a great way to do things.

This is no balance proposal, this is a wishlist for a plate coated dps with +critdamage, a lot of crit/weaponskill and nearly no downsides, and if possible give everything for group.

I get it, BO does not provide much compared to BG and Chosen, but at least he hit like a truck, while I agree on there is something to do with BO, damage should be the last to focus on.

- All classes have tactics and abilitys that are not really in use due to other classes provide similar effects, thats not a blorc specific issue

- All classes have tactics and abilitys that are not in use because they feel useless, especially with tactics there is a "BIS" to take, at the end you need to pick 4 and the rest is more or less never in use

Thanks for the reply.

Please remember this is to do with the upcoming balance patch and hopefully all the classes will get the same treatment as I’m proposing here. But this specific post is about BO and not taking into account any changes to the other classes. I can see why it just reads as a big wish-list if it’s read as just a change to BO in vacuum. Have a look at what Chosen can offer and see if anything here is op compared to it. If I wanted an unbalanced do everything wish list I would have given us our anti-detaunt back, T’ree hit combo on SnB for free, Speed buff on disrupt, healing debuff, crit reduction, auto attack buff, ability strength buff, 50% crit damage tactic etc.

The main purpose is to give BO a role that it currently lacks and make the combo mechanic an actual mechanic. I went with physical damage buff/physical resist with no anti magic (outside of silence) and no anti-healer mechanics. As Chosen is the buff tank and BG is the debuff/anti magic tank what role do you think BO should fill if not this one?

The goal here isn’t to be better than a mdps. As I said, the BO will hit hard “for a tank” and will never be able to put out the damage of a true mdps. There are actually very few changes to BO damage output from current. The ability for BO to do bigger crits is already in the game with “stab you gooder” and the change of the mechanic is just taking an existing tactic and making it the class mechanic. This makes it actually useful and give the combo classes a play style they currently lack. Bare in mind the SM will also get this.

The only difference to chance to crit from current is the +10% from the change to arm breaka, which is a weaker version of the IB ability “ancestor’s fury”. IB has tactics and ability combos that allow it to go higher crit than BO. The 25% WS on parry tactic is to stick with the theme of the class (physical damage/damage mitigation) and to allow it keep up with the SM spirit damage, although it has to give up a tactic slot to do this. Also when running SnB in WB you’re still going to be hitting like a noodle like all other tanks so it needs to offer something in SnB as well. It stills pales in comparison to what a Chosen can offer with group buffs, as it should be.

I completely disagree that any class should have pointless junk tactics. The goal for all classes should be that all their tactics are good and you should wish you could take all of them but force yourself to choose 4. That to me is the sign of true balance.

[Acidic]

Not very convinced that the solution to a tank is increasing its do’s, can not see this as fixing the tank identity. However as seen in Sword Master tanks can have dips (sm spirit damage makes it hit harder than BO and utility (winds, talon..)
I have to say that pure damage on BO as I read the proposal is not going to help .

BO identity is a heavy tank , mele def and damage yes. However as there is such a thing as undefendable and especially rampage it fails in this task so would like to the BO being able to take the damage dished out by order, notably slayer as the main mele damage dealer on order.

My whish list would be:
A) aoe damage reducer similar to talons but for mele attacks - dull blades ..maybe a bellow on being hit
B) aoe shatter (for removal of rampage), decent cd 30s +
C) cooldown reducer
D) a decent punt

If the cooldown is given to BO replace chop fasts with something fun for the chopps(failed at choppa so won’t say what they need)
The current model of order having cdr on tank and destro having it on do’s limits destro setups unessasaraly

This would make a BO with a anti mele brute image

[oaliaen]

"This would make a BO with a anti mele brute image"

Also would fit whit the lore

[anstalt]

I'm too casual to know what specific buffs are needed to balance out the black orc with other tanks. What I'm more interested in is increasing the number of viable builds, and giving each tank a specific identity.


So, what I'd look to do is give each tank (BO, BG and Chosen) basically the same tanking ability. Each of the three should be a viable endgame tank, regardless of what else they can do. So, we all get the same guard, punt, mitigations, taunts etc.

Then, each class gets it's own "flavour". I think BO's should be the damage/pressure tank, so give them slightly better damage than other tanks and potentially some extra movement abilities. Chosen should be the buff tank, whilst BGs should be the debuff tank.

[zulnam]

So, what I'd look to do is give each tank (BO, BG and Chosen) basically the same tanking ability. Each of the three should be a viable endgame tank, regardless of what else they can do. So, we all get the same guard, punt, mitigations, taunts etc.

You mean like Guard? Challenge? Hold the Line? Bellow? M4?

[Culexus]

Not very convinced that the solution to a tank is increasing its do’s, can not see this as fixing the tank identity. However as seen in Sword Master tanks can have dips (sm spirit damage makes it hit harder than BO and utility (winds, talon..)
I have to say that pure damage on BO as I read the proposal is not going to help .

BO identity is a heavy tank , mele def and damage yes. However as there is such a thing as undefendable and especially rampage it fails in this task so would like to the BO being able to take the damage dished out by order, notably slayer as the main mele damage dealer on order.

My whish list would be:
A) aoe damage reducer similar to talons but for mele attacks - dull blades ..maybe a bellow on being hit
B) aoe shatter (for removal of rampage), decent cd 30s +
C) cooldown reducer
D) a decent punt

If the cooldown is given to BO replace chop fasts with something fun for the chopps(failed at choppa so won’t say what they need)
The current model of order having cdr on tank and destro having it on do’s limits destro setups unessasaraly

This would make a BO with a anti mele brute image

As I said in a previous reply, the intention isn't to make BO a pure damage pseudo dps but make physical damage and physical damage mitigation it's identity. The BO would continue to mirror SM in being the highest damage tank just as it currently does. The proposed change to the combo mechanic helps both fulfill their role and there are 2 ability tweaks in the damage tree to help it achieve this. This change would mainly come up in smallscale where BO will be running 2h spec, the tanking and buff trees focus more on the core tanking abilities.

I understand I've written a big wall of text that most people will never read, but I agree with you in regards to BO tank role and go over it in the toughest and greenest trees.

The tl;dr for physical mitigation would be:
Ya missed me - available to 2h. Great for physical dps reduction in smallscale
Tuffer ‘n Nails - 10% reduced armour pen on self. Helps survive rampage
Big Swing - Now an interrupt. Doesn't remove rampage but can disrupt channelling after rampage is popped.
Savin’ Me Hide - Now provides 20% physical resist for group rather than magic. Not as good as talon spam but as that requires a tactic it really shouldn't be.

***EDIT*** I've added a tl;dr version at the bottom of the original post.