Petition for Devastator Set 5pc bonus change

[Genisaurus]

I don't disagree, but I think sometimes that too much weight is given to crit%. It's good, but it's not always more valuable in terms of DPS. I've mentioned this before, but a 5% increased chance to crit only amounts to about a 2.4% increase in damage. Meanwhile, 5% parry strikethrough is about a 5.5% increase in damage.

So I've given your post some thought, and I still hold to my conclusion. First, I don't think your math includes the crit tactics that most if not all mdps are using. Aside from that, it also is somewhat fundamentally flawed in that it doesn't take into account two very important things:

1. The targets of priority should / will have very little parry (clothies)

2. All targets for mdps (especially wh, but all mdps really) should be hit from the back. The goal is always "from the back". Thus, I'm hoping you never parry me anyways, because I'm not trying to hit you face on where you can parry. This is even more important in t4 when flanking is on every bar... (currently, only high end gear sets and group buffs allow some to run this - if at all).

Bottom line - I believe crit is significant. And when talking about 4pc dev and 2% crit from a non dev piece... or 5pc dev with a proc... (so 2% crit or dev proc)... I still hold that this is the tradeoff that must be evaluated and weighed when discussing the proc. If you don't believe the proc is substantial enough to forego 2% crit... then I highly encourage that we look for a different proc.

The Goal should be a "tough choice" for the player when decided the BIS gear for t3. especially after all your gear set work. If the proc is garbage.. no one will use it...especially when it foregos 2% crit.

I'll stop beating the deadhorse because I think we are on the same page regarding the goal. As it stands, corrosion is clearly not benefiting the WL and marked is not helping Squig/SW.

I still believe that for CH/SL and Squig/SW, it will be difficult to ever switch to 5pc. for squig, even with your reworked stats... 5pc dev was a nerf to core offensive stats (I was losing 30+ main stat to pick up 10 wounds, 7 weapon skill when switching between 3/2 stalk/dev to 5pc dev)

Thanks for your time.

You're right, after running the numbers, doubling the amount of crit bonus damage you do (running a +50% tactic - I know CH only get 25%) doubles the effectiveness of additional crit, almost matching the value of parry strikethrough. At that point, I'd say the two are equal - you're right again that MDPS always want to be striking from behind, but a competent mouse-turner would make that harder I think. But yeah, I'll concede that under most circumstances, +crit% is better for a class that gets the crit damage tactic on top of having an incentive to hit from the sides or rear.

Even if it weren't better, it's clear that crit is what the community places a higher value in.

I'll swap the 5% Parry Strikethrough for Melee Crit on the Devastator set, in addition to the other changes I mentioned. I'm keeping Parry on the Duelist set however, as it is more defensively oriented. That being said, I can change the proc on the defensive set to Reactionary as well, though I fear that will incentivize dual-wielding even more, as it will be easier to proc both the offensive and defensive procs then. The spec changes from spamming Lotsa Choppin to slotting Riposte. Though the same can be said for Marauders...

After some deliberation, I'm going to hold off on giving Guile to White Lions. Yes they could benefit from it, and it would make running full Devastator clearly worth it, but in the words of wiser people than I, "Itemization is not the place to address class balance." I'll agree that they could probably use an incoming heal debuff, but it doesn't belong on a gear set - certainly not on one that's not even T4.

So far the changes stand at:

Spoiler:

SW/SQ:
Devastator 5pc: Marked -> Domination
Duelist 5pc: Quickening -> Creeping

WL:
Devastator 5pc: Corrosion -> Clarity

SL/CH:
Devastator 4pc: +5% Parry Strikethrough -> +5% Melee Crit
Devastator 5pc: Clarity -> Overwhelming
Duelist 5pc: Mending -> Reactionary

AM/SH:
Devastator 5pc: Preservaton -> Preservation
Duelist 5pc: Barrier -> Quickening

[TenTonHammer]

That being said, I can change the proc on the defensive set to Reactionary as well

Click here to watch on YouTube

[Cimba]

Spoiler:

I don't disagree, but I think sometimes that too much weight is given to crit%. It's good, but it's not always more valuable in terms of DPS. I've mentioned this before, but a 5% increased chance to crit only amounts to about a 2.4% increase in damage. Meanwhile, 5% parry strikethrough is about a 5.5% increase in damage.

So I've given your post some thought, and I still hold to my conclusion. First, I don't think your math includes the crit tactics that most if not all mdps are using. Aside from that, it also is somewhat fundamentally flawed in that it doesn't take into account two very important things:

1. The targets of priority should / will have very little parry (clothies)

2. All targets for mdps (especially wh, but all mdps really) should be hit from the back. The goal is always "from the back". Thus, I'm hoping you never parry me anyways, because I'm not trying to hit you face on where you can parry. This is even more important in t4 when flanking is on every bar... (currently, only high end gear sets and group buffs allow some to run this - if at all).

Bottom line - I believe crit is significant. And when talking about 4pc dev and 2% crit from a non dev piece... or 5pc dev with a proc... (so 2% crit or dev proc)... I still hold that this is the tradeoff that must be evaluated and weighed when discussing the proc. If you don't believe the proc is substantial enough to forego 2% crit... then I highly encourage that we look for a different proc.

The Goal should be a "tough choice" for the player when decided the BIS gear for t3. especially after all your gear set work. If the proc is garbage.. no one will use it...especially when it foregos 2% crit.

I'll stop beating the deadhorse because I think we are on the same page regarding the goal. As it stands, corrosion is clearly not benefiting the WL and marked is not helping Squig/SW.

I still believe that for CH/SL and Squig/SW, it will be difficult to ever switch to 5pc. for squig, even with your reworked stats... 5pc dev was a nerf to core offensive stats (I was losing 30+ main stat to pick up 10 wounds, 7 weapon skill when switching between 3/2 stalk/dev to 5pc dev)

Thanks for your time.

You're right, after running the numbers, doubling the amount of crit bonus damage you do (running a +50% tactic - I know CH only get 25%) doubles the effectiveness of additional crit, almost matching the value of parry strikethrough. At that point, I'd say the two are equal - you're right again that MDPS always want to be striking from behind, but a competent mouse-turner would make that harder I think. But yeah, I'll concede that under most circumstances, +crit% is better for a class that gets the crit damage tactic on top of having an incentive to hit from the sides or rear.

Even if it weren't better, it's clear that crit is what the community places a higher value in.

I'll swap the 5% Parry Strikethrough for Melee Crit on the Devastator set, in addition to the other changes I mentioned. I'm keeping Parry on the Duelist set however, as it is more defensively oriented. That being said, I can change the proc on the defensive set to Reactionary as well, though I fear that will incentivize dual-wielding even more, as it will be easier to proc both the offensive and defensive procs then. The spec changes from spamming Lotsa Choppin to slotting Riposte. Though the same can be said for Marauders...

After some deliberation, I'm going to hold off on giving Guile to White Lions. Yes they could benefit from it, and it would make running full Devastator clearly worth it, but in the words of wiser people than I, "Itemization is not the place to address class balance." I'll agree that they could probably use an incoming heal debuff, but it doesn't belong on a gear set - certainly not on one that's not even T4.

So far the changes stand at:

Spoiler:

SW/SQ:
Devastator 5pc: Marked -> Domination
Duelist 5pc: Quickening -> Creeping

WL:
Devastator 5pc: Corrosion -> Clarity

SL/CH:
Devastator 4pc: +5% Parry Strikethrough -> +5% Melee Crit
Devastator 5pc: Clarity -> Overwhelming
Duelist 5pc: Mending -> Reactionary

AM/SH:
Devastator 5pc: Preservaton -> Preservation
Duelist 5pc: Barrier -> Quickening

Well I was working on a lengthy piece to point out that ingame 90% of the player just won't turn to you if you punch them. And even for the other 10% it gets somewhat difficult to face everyone in your assist train.

As to your proposed change of Clarity to Overwhelming. I have to kindly disagree. Point is there are just too many STR buffs around (at least on order side) for the buff effect to be usefull. And the situations where the debuff would be usefull is also somewhat limited. If it would buff WS than I would consider it a worthwhile option. But that's not possible right now afaik.

The problem I see with the slayer proc is that every other offensive proc would be way to overpowered on him. Armor debuff, Taunt, dmg procs? Out of question. Healdebuff? Well that would be fun... given the aoe capabilties of a slayer.

That only leaves clarity. And in fact you run into ap problems on slayers especially with aoe specs. Are there other solutions to it? Sure. But there is always a trade off or cooldown in case of pots. And given the circumstances I would consider clarity a benefcial and above all balanced choice.

Edit: Rephrased my argument a bit.

[mursie]

As to your proposed change of Clarity to Overwhelming. I have to kindly disagree. Point is there are just too many STR buffs around (at least on order side) for the buff effect to be usefull. And the situations where the debuff would be usefull is also somewhat limited. If it would buff WS than I would consider it a worthwhile option. But that's not possible right now afaik.

The problem I see with the slayer proc is that every other offensive proc would be way to overpowered on him. Armor debuff, Taunt, dmg procs? Out of question. Healdebuff? Well that would be fun... given the aoe capabilties of a slayer.

That only leaves clarity. And in fact you run into ap problems on slayers especially with aoe specs. Are there other solutions to it? Sure. But there is always a trade off or cooldown in case of pots. And given the circumstances I would consider clarity a benefcial and above all balanced choice.

Edit: Rephrased my argument a bit.

Genis - I agree with Cimba on the SL/CH proc and would like to add the following:

Slayer and choppa have easier access to STR cap due to two tactics (BF and their WS/STR combined tactic). Thus, I can see how overwhelming proc for them is not as advantageous as say clarity since they are near STR cap anyways (although the WS debuff is still nice.)

I would also counter that WL/MARA actually would benefit a great deal from overwhelming instead of clairty (hence why i ranked guile - overwhelming - clarity - corrosion) because they do not have as easy a time to get to STR cap. On my current setup which is nearly BIS ... I'm running 4 pc dev and 2% crit stalker gloves with +21 str talis. Even wtih max pot up and BF in, im not quite at str cap. Now, in all honesty, I'd rather be able to use flanking...which is nearly impossible on WL because if i unslot brute force I'm sitting in low 700's on str. With overwhelming...I could see WL's going that way.

TL:DR - I'd like to propose WL/Mara (or WL at minimum) move to overwhelming and SL/CH move to clarity.

PS - making the SL/CH 4pc dev set be 5% crit is already a huge HUGE upgrade for them. I think many choppas/slayers are now rejoicing at this news.

[Genisaurus]

Genis - I agree with Cimba on the SL/CH proc and would like to add the following:

Slayer and choppa have easier access to STR cap due to two tactics (BF and their WS/STR combined tactic). Thus, I can see how overwhelming proc for them is not as advantageous as say clarity since they are near STR cap anyways (although the WS debuff is still nice.)

I would also counter that WL/MARA actually would benefit a great deal from overwhelming instead of clairty (hence why i ranked guile - overwhelming - clarity - corrosion) because they do not have as easy a time to get to STR cap. On my current setup which is nearly BIS ... I'm running 4 pc dev and 2% crit stalker gloves with +21 str talis. Even wtih max pot up and BF in, im not quite at str cap. Now, in all honesty, I'd rather be able to use flanking...which is nearly impossible on WL because if i unslot brute force I'm sitting in low 700's on str. With overwhelming...I could see WL's going that way.

TL:DR - I'd like to propose WL/Mara (or WL at minimum) move to overwhelming and SL/CH move to clarity.

PS - making the SL/CH 4pc dev set be 5% crit is already a huge HUGE upgrade for them. I think many choppas/slayers are now rejoicing at this news.

You don't see yourself running into the same issue on a WL that Climba mentioned? Overwhelming won't stack with a pot, so even without Brute Force, a potion/KotBS/IB/RP will still be able to bring your Strength up just as much, if not more, than Overwhelming. Then you also have a free potion slot.

[Cimba]

Genis - I agree with Cimba on the SL/CH proc and would like to add the following:

Slayer and choppa have easier access to STR cap due to two tactics (BF and their WS/STR combined tactic). Thus, I can see how overwhelming proc for them is not as advantageous as say clarity since they are near STR cap anyways (although the WS debuff is still nice.)

I would also counter that WL/MARA actually would benefit a great deal from overwhelming instead of clairty (hence why i ranked guile - overwhelming - clarity - corrosion) because they do not have as easy a time to get to STR cap. On my current setup which is nearly BIS ... I'm running 4 pc dev and 2% crit stalker gloves with +21 str talis. Even wtih max pot up and BF in, im not quite at str cap. Now, in all honesty, I'd rather be able to use flanking...which is nearly impossible on WL because if i unslot brute force I'm sitting in low 700's on str. With overwhelming...I could see WL's going that way.

TL:DR - I'd like to propose WL/Mara (or WL at minimum) move to overwhelming and SL/CH move to clarity.

PS - making the SL/CH 4pc dev set be 5% crit is already a huge HUGE upgrade for them. I think many choppas/slayers are now rejoicing at this news.

Maybe I should clarify why I don't like Overwhelming. It's not because we are already at strength cap. It's because the proc doesn't stack, afaik, with any other skill based strength increase or potions.

Lets take a look where you can get a strength buff as slayer. If you want to play successful in group you pretty much need to be paired with a tank. Now thanks to the Encouraged Aim tactic strength auras on kotbs are acutually pretty common and the strength buff from the ib is baseline. Even with a SM you have with some luck a decent strength buff for your grp. To add to that you have rp buffs and potions... and probably other options i'm not aware of at the moment.

If you want to make stat buff/debuff procs viable they would either
a) need to stack with existing buffs (the debuff not necessarily) or
b) have a way higher value then conventional buffs (like a 120 or so, I think kotbs aura is ~90) or
c) buff stats which are currently not available through conventional buffs (e.g. WS or Melee Power)

of these options I'm not sure which options are possible at the moment.

PS: Indeed I do!

[mursie]

You don't see yourself running into the same issue on a WL that Climba mentioned? Overwhelming won't stack with a pot, so even without Brute Force, a potion/KotBS/IB/RP will still be able to bring your Strength up just as much, if not more, than Overwhelming. Then you also have a free potion slot.

crap - i didn't realize it doesn't stack. sigh. In that case, yes clarity is better but not actually worth using. A free potion slot is useless since the only potions are main stat. Maybe if liniments (there was a WS one back in the day) existed...maybe.

Just a final thought then on this - yes clarity is better than corrosion. In the end, I don't think clarity will outweigh the benefits of 2% crit given crit tactic etc...

Was hoping for a 5pc set that would actually be worth wearing. Apologies for wasting your time but thank you none the less for discussing it.

[Genisaurus]

You don't see yourself running into the same issue on a WL that Climba mentioned? Overwhelming won't stack with a pot, so even without Brute Force, a potion/KotBS/IB/RP will still be able to bring your Strength up just as much, if not more, than Overwhelming. Then you also have a free potion slot.

crap - i didn't realize it doesn't stack. sigh. In that case, yes clarity is better but not actually worth using. A free potion slot is useless since the only potions are main stat. Maybe if liniments (there was a WS one back in the day) existed...maybe.

Just a final thought then on this - yes clarity is better than corrosion. In the end, I don't think clarity will outweigh the benefits of 2% crit given crit tactic etc...

Was hoping for a 5pc set that would actually be worth wearing. Apologies for wasting your time but thank you none the less for discussing it.

What is an option are bonuses that are not procs, though I'm hesitant to give one to only one class, nor do I want to open a pandora's box of other classes clamoring for something similar. Redeye gives +25% AA speed, and since that will be implemented sometime in the future, it's not an option here.

Looking through their T4 sets, it's clear that some procs are only offered when the 6pc bonus is even better. Invader for example, gives White Lions Clarity as a 5pc, but gives +5% damage as a 6pc. Dark Promise has Mending on the 5pc, but +5 AP/s as the 6pc bonus.

It's worth noting that they have Guile on the Sentinel set. They also get Bewildering (On Hit: 10% chance to Disorient target for 5 seconds increasing the cast time of their abilities by 50%) on Conqueror, but I suspect that was incredibly valuable before the Disorient nerf, and was never changed after. In either case, I don't know of anyone who ran a full set in T4, but knowing that it's an option there makes me slightly more favorable to offering Guile in T3.

I'll offer you this, as the only class that is locked into using a 2-handed weapon, and thus required to slot a tactic to get the same AA speed as other MDPS:

Depleting - On Hit: 10% chance to remove 50 AP from target

[mursie]

Depleting - On Hit: 10% chance to remove 50 AP from target

Genisaurus, you have been more than fair.

However, at this point, I must concede my ignorance and give way to others in the community, or yourself, that may be better inclined to propose the proc.

I know that on the table is 2% crit from a non-dev piece, or a proc. You have identified clarity (10% chance for ability to be free) and depleting (10% chance to strip 50AP from target - btw I'm assuming this isn't a steal in which you actually get the 50AP you are depleting)..

With knowledge that the WL will definitely run the crit tactic, I do not think I have sufficient mathematical support to argue if 2% crit is indeed better than either of the procs you mentioned. I think it may be...but again - i must plead my ignorance here.

I really appreciate your time, and at the end of the day, I think you realize what I'm trying to do (not just for white lion but all classes). I want to see the 5 pc dev to be a "choice" that really matters for players. I'm not necessarily saying it has to be 100% WAY better than 2% crit... but it at least needs to be adequate to it.

I leave the rest in your hands, or the hands of others more able to competently respond, as to what that proc should be.

Thank you again.

[Genisaurus]

Depleting - On Hit: 10% chance to remove 50 AP from target

Genisaurus, you have been more than fair.

However, at this point, I must concede my ignorance and give way to others in the community, or yourself, that may be better inclined to propose the proc.

I know that on the table is 2% crit from a non-dev piece, or a proc. You have identified clarity (10% chance for ability to be free) and depleting (10% chance to strip 50AP from target - btw I'm assuming this isn't a steal in which you actually get the 50AP you are depleting)..

With knowledge that the WL will definitely run the crit tactic, I do not think I have sufficient mathematical support to argue if 2% crit is indeed better than either of the procs you mentioned. I think it is...but again - i must plead my ignorance here.

I really appreciate your time, and at the end of the day, I think you realize what I'm trying to do (not just for white lion but all classes). I want to see the 5 pc dev to be a "choice" that really matters for players. I'm not necessarily saying it has to be 100% WAY better than 2% crit... but it at least needs to be adequate to it.

I leave the rest in your hands, or the hands of others more able to competently respond, as to what that proc should be.

Thank you again.

And I appreciate your consistently thoughtful responses. In my short tenure, I've tried to make it clear to the community that we're very flexible and transparent when it comes to balancing the game and determining it's future, so long as players actually participate in the discussion, and do so respectfully. Thanks to you, and everyone else putting their $0.02 into this process.

You are right that it is not an AP steal, it's just a removal.

I'm definitely trying to ensure that the 5pc bonuses are worth it for everyone too. I want there to be a solid benefit to giving up the 2pc bonus on another set, or the stats on a single other piece. The difficulty comes in only being able to use the procs that were present in live, since we cannot create new ones yet. Most of the procs we have access to were reserved for T4 sets, and have a power level that does not belong in T3.

Spoiler:

For example:

Aim - On Hit: 10% chance to increase critical chance by 20% for 5 seconds.
Evasive - On Being Hit: 10% chance to detaunt target

Those aren't going into T3 for obvious reasons. I'm hesitant to even see them in T4, but we'll see what the power scale is like when we get there, and what tradeoffs those procs have to be more useful than.

2% crit on a White Lion with the +50% crit damage tactic slotted, is +4% DPS overall. That's what's being weighed against Clarity, Depleting, or maybe, possibly, Guile or +5 AP/s.