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Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

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Nefarian78
Posts: 358

Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#1 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:27 am

I'll start off by saying that my feedback is based on the assumption that the offensive set is made for 2h tanks to use in smallscale, scenarios and 6v6 encounters and should not be used for Warband play or Offensive SnB tanks. Assuming that is the case, this set isn't particularly good for any of those categories.

First off, this set is overloeaded with Toughness. It has an absurd 227 toughness which is even more than the Defensive Sov, at 203toughness (Without counting the +88 2pc bonus). For smallscale play, there's no reason to stack that much toughness. A tank can easily survive with 270-300 toughness, because the biggest source of damage for a 2h tank is, by far, Guard damage. It's very rare that a 2h tank is being targeted directly and even if that's the case, you're tanky enough to easily survive with the help of your team. Stacking high amounts of toughness doesn't even help much in that case.

Second point. Very, very low Str, WS, Ini. The set doesn't even gets close to bloodlord in terms of Str, standing at 204 compared to the 265 from Bloodlord, both including set bonus (BL also has 1 less piece), 33 ini compared to BL's 81 and only 10 more WS. Overall, every single piece has lower str than bloodlord and lower or no initiative while wounds are about the same. Not much dps assist or tanking to be had, if you have to patch up both the offensive and defensive stats of the set with talis and rr abilities. There's not much else to add in this point...This set's stat budget is completely used up by toughness or dump stats, which leads to my next point

Third point. Too much of the set's budget is used up by stats like Hp/s, Morale/s and AP/s. There's no way to get those stats high enough to the point they'll ever make a difference. 8hp/4s on shoulders, 4ap/s on chest, 2ap/s on boots and jewel...What are those stats supposed to accomplish? Tanks aren't AP hungry in the first place and have their own tools to get AP (Get 'Em, Grudge Unleashed, Chosen/Kotb Auras), in addition of other team mates abilities and tactics.

Fourth point. Almost no parry% whatsoever. 2% on the belt and that's it. No set bonuses for parry, no parry % on pieces, low WS. Using this set, or it's pieces in a 6v6 scenario will end up with you getting shredded to death by guard damage in a matter of seconds. It's even worse if you're in a pug sc and low on heals, or god forbid you are 2h guarding a Slayer or mSH or a bw/sorc in a largescale fight.

Overall, this set is completely crushed and outclassed by Bloodlord in both the defensive and offensive department.

Now that i've listed the problems with this set, here are my suggested changes.

Depending how much stats things like AP/S "cost" the items stat budget must be increased.

A good chunk of that toughness has to be converted into Str, WS, Ini.

Dump stats should (Especially that 8hp/4s on shoulders) be converted into either more raw stats (especially WS) or Parry%.
Vorak - Capulet

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Illuminati
Posts: 64

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#2 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:45 am

Well stated and agree, mostly. Hoping for an item pass.

I like the +AP things. Would welcome the stat review.

nocturnalguest
Posts: 126

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#3 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:45 am

Agreed. 8hp/4sec is just a joke, cmon...
No reduced chance to parry, no parry, very low strength, low ini (as i main IB its most hitting issue). I still had hopes for some nice mix&matches with rings to at least be upper bloodlord+2p sentinel but this would be no longer possible with current patch. So seems that bl+2p sentinel would still remain BiS.
Tbh checking all those new city sets for tanks i think we better wait for ranked gear and darkpromise. Regarding itemization rules in general i think darkpromise gonna be BiS for 6v6
Altho have to say that set bonuses are pretty attractive. Not sure about detaunt but strikethru bonus is very strong (believe me, been running 2 imperator+4 domi+3 warrior genesis, if not the stats that are kinda low in this case, overstacking reduced chance to parry and strikethru rocks so hard, one can only imagine)

Ravai
Posts: 94

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#4 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:21 am

The set bonuses are really good other than maybe the proc so I like what Wargrim has done here but the stat distribution could maybe use some tweaking. Even though I'm not totally against the hybrid nature of the current sovereign it would be nice to see more strength, crit and melee power to fit the theme of the set bonuses in place of the toughness/weapon skill. Individually the belt, shoulders, boots and cloak are underwhelming for anybody hoping to build a dps based tank, belt and shoulders being the weakest (compare the sovereign belt and oppressor belt in this case).

I'd say the oppressor set is a good example of reference for stat distribution on a dps tank, with maybe weapon skill being replaced by initiative.
Gitrate - Rysto - Nuclearpotato - Tato - Billsmith - Avgor - Ezi - Dug - Mrglass - Ravz - Ripgor

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Nefarian78
Posts: 358

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#5 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:17 am

Ravai wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:21 am
The set bonuses are really good other than maybe the proc so I like what Wargrim has done here but the stat distribution could maybe use some tweaking. Even though I'm not totally against the hybrid nature of the current sovereign it would be nice to see more strength, crit and melee power to fit the theme of the set bonuses in place of the toughness/weapon skill. Individually the belt, shoulders, boots and cloak are underwhelming for anybody hoping to build a dps based tank, belt and shoulders being the weakest (compare the sovereign belt and oppressor belt in this case).

I'd say the oppressor set is a good example of reference for stat distribution on a dps tank, with maybe weapon skill being replaced by initiative.
Offensive Sovereign shouldn't be a Hybrid or Defensive 2h set. We already have Warlord for that and it's clearly the mixed set. it has decent str, a WS set bonus, armor pen, melee power, parry% on a few easy to mix pieces (like the back) and detaunt. It's basically the current tier Beastlord. Versatile, easy to mix and, outside that 80HP/4 on chest, it's a well built set with no flaws.

Offensive sov should be more similiar to Bloodlord with a hint of Sentinel and Beastlord in there. Higher on the Str/Ws/Ini/parry side of things and lower on the Toughness department. It's critical that the new sets have lots of both Ini and Parry (From both % and WS) to mitigate the increasingly high crit rate dps will have and overall damage that tanks will be subjected to.

Last time fully offensive sets were viable was during Dominator/Conqueror times. Back then critical rates were not as high as they are now, and especially, there were no 7th pc bonuses like Overwhelm. A 2h tank wearing an Oppressor-like set in this meta is a man that is walking straight into a meat-grinder.
Vorak - Capulet

Ravai
Posts: 94

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#6 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:12 am

Nefarian78 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:17 am
Last time fully offensive sets were viable was during Dominator/Conqueror times. Back then critical rates were not as high as they are now, and especially, there were no 7th pc bonuses like Overwhelm. A 2h tank wearing an Oppressor-like set in this meta is a man that is walking straight into a meat-grinder.
Those tanks trying to be "tanks" using a two handed weapon of all things and opp/dom in this current meta, there is noway that defensive tactics, jewels and renown could counter this obvious disability. :roll:
Gitrate - Rysto - Nuclearpotato - Tato - Billsmith - Avgor - Ezi - Dug - Mrglass - Ravz - Ripgor

Babanim
Posts: 32

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#7 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:08 pm

I totally agree as well. The current version of offensive Sovereign sets for tanks is very disappointing.

While the set bonuses are nice, the items themselves are not well designed.

There is toughness on every single item and it's the highest stat in almost all cases.

We are talking about what should be the very best set in the game for a 2h tank, therefore we should be expecting things like:

- Lots of Str, WS, Ini, Wounds.
- Parry (!!), melee crit, armor pen, AA haste/increase
- Very little Toughness and disrupt/dodge.
- No wasted stats like HP regen (8hp/4sec on Sovereign?!), morale gain, AP regen.

Also, what is good for a Black Orc isn't necessarily good for a Chosen. Every tank Sovereign set should be designed specifically for each particular class, you cannot simply make 1 set and copy/paste it for every tank class in the game. For example, Chosens do not want to stack WS nearly as much as Black Orcs.

Please revisit the offensive Sovereign items for tanks. Take example on Bloodlord which is a beautifully designed set for 2h tanks and make Sovereign a better version of that.

Thanks!

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Ekundu01
Posts: 185

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#8 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:01 pm

I don't get why people are hating on toughness on a tank set. Offensive or defensive you still want some decent toughness.

Even stacking a ton of offensive stats you don't get much return from it. And if you are planning on reaching real mdps str/ws/crit numbers you will be mixing sets and not going full 8 piece sov.

If you are playing a 2hand tank and running around under 500 toughness you might as well play a mdps and not a tank because what is the point in playing a 2hand tank if you are going to have the survival of a mdps and the moment you guard someone you melt faster then the person you are guarding. Toughness may not help with guard damage but you are still going to take damage from aoe.

Toughness may not be as good as it used to be but you shouldn't neglect it. You are a tank first and a dps second. Tanks can not be true mdps without sacrificing too much and making yourself more squishy then a mdps and still not hitting as hard. Toughness is the only thing that will help you survive vs armor pen/casters (since you don't have a shield and you can't parry casters).

I run minimum 700-800 toughness on my tank for rvr SnB or 2hand so sov sets having high toughness is a stat i like to see.
Trismack - Black Sheep

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nocturnalguest
Posts: 126

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#9 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:26 pm

Well Ekundu1 i myself dont feel comfartable below 500 at all, but we talk that it has way much toughness atm, its overweighten there. Agree with you that tanks are unique and also i support if sets would have been different. IB for example is the only class without single ability of different dmg type and ability ignoring armor so needs more WS than rest, but much lesser crit cause of sweet revenge and universal crit buff etc

marisco
Posts: 151

Re: Tank Offensive Sovereign Feedback

Post#10 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:47 pm

Ekundu01 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:01 pm
I don't get why people are hating on toughness on a tank set. Offensive or defensive you still want some decent toughness.

Even stacking a ton of offensive stats you don't get much return from it. And if you are planning on reaching real mdps str/ws/crit numbers you will be mixing sets and not going full 8 piece sov.

If you are playing a 2hand tank and running around under 500 toughness you might as well play a mdps and not a tank because what is the point in playing a 2hand tank if you are going to have the survival of a mdps and the moment you guard someone you melt faster then the person you are guarding. Toughness may not help with guard damage but you are still going to take damage from aoe.

Toughness may not be as good as it used to be but you shouldn't neglect it. You are a tank first and a dps second. Tanks can not be true mdps without sacrificing too much and making yourself more squishy then a mdps and still not hitting as hard. Toughness is the only thing that will help you survive vs armor pen/casters (since you don't have a shield and you can't parry casters).

I run minimum 700-800 toughness on my tank for rvr SnB or 2hand so sov sets having high toughness is a stat i like to see.
Thoughness works better with multiple sources of damage. The whole point of the OP post was about small scale, 6v6, scenarios, etc, where the overall amount of damage you receive as a tank is MUCH lower than on rvr. Thoughness is absolutely important where are being focused by 20+ people while pushing into a door or a funnel but if all the damage you are taking is guard damage and maybe 2 dps focusing into you it's not that good of a stat.

No one said thoughness is bad for tanks, its just not a priority stat in small scale.

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